Latest post Mon, Oct 18 2010 5:53 PM by doxilia. 16 replies.
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  • Thu, Oct 14 2010 3:56 PM

    • jef
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    DS and today's cameras

    I just saw that our local camera rental shop has acquired an Arri Alexa.  And they plan on it being used for mainly ProRes recording.

    The AJA KiPro is making inroads in the market.  It records ProRes.

    The Convergent Design system records high quality file based material.

    Most people expect Red to have a native ProRes recorder module very soon.

    Non of this material can be used natively in a DS.  It must all go through a MC system and be transcoded.

    Time and cost and storage issues all helping to make producers want to know why they should use DS?

    If you offline and online all in DS - as I do for the majority of my work - then this is a killer issue.

    At minimum, and I have written this before, Avid should give Arri and AJA and Convergent Design DNX licenses and tech.  Pay them to use DNX if necessary.  I imagine that would be less expensive than the other solution to this issue which is hire developers and make DS compatible with the realities of modern camera systems.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." 2021 iMac w Big Sur [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

  • Thu, Oct 14 2010 4:21 PM In reply to

    • ManChicken
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    Re: DS and today's cameras

    jef:
    Non of this material can be used natively in a DS.  It must all go through a MC system and be transcoded.

    Only if you have audio... DS should read most flavors of ProRes just fine given that Quicktime on Windows can read them, but the primary thing that needs to be addressed is that the Ki Pro for instance puts the audio into a configuration that DS currently does not like, so that is failing.

  • Thu, Oct 14 2010 4:27 PM In reply to

    Re: DS and today's cameras

    Re: DNxHD; It is somewhat odd that even though both Media Composer and of course DS support dual link SDI, there is no 444 version of Avids codec.

    Symphony 2018.12.13 Mac Pro 2x2.66 6-core 32GB Ram Aja Kona Lhi. MC 2018.12.13 OS 10.13.4 Mac Pro 5.1 2x2.97 6-core 32GB ram Aja I/O express, SNS SANmp... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Oct 14 2010 4:37 PM In reply to

    • gevalt
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    Re: DS and today's cameras

    are you listening to yourself???

     

    ONLY IF YOU HAVE AUDIO????

     

    on what planet do you find this ACCEPTABLE????

     

    +1 to what jef said.

     

    david

    now... MC 2018 w/ Mojo DX on a Mac Pro 5,1 tower. previously, Avid DS Nitris v10.3 xw8400 and before that, as far back as MC 3 on a Mac IIfx [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Oct 14 2010 4:48 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: DS and today's cameras

    Hey Bob,

    Reading ProRes is not a solution in my mind.  First it is an import.  This means I have double the storage needs.  The original ProRes file and the new .gen files DS will make.

    Second is the time.  As you know, QT import are slower than real time.  In AMA, there is no import - point to file and edit.

    Hence my comments about time and storge.  We import ProRes all the time.  But I would not want to do so for hours of shoot tapes.  And that is the point I am making here.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." 2021 iMac w Big Sur [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

  • Thu, Oct 14 2010 4:50 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: DS and today's cameras

    That was a bit harsh David.  A bit insulting as well.

    Bob points out yet another issue with DS that needs to be addressed.  And he was just making sure I knew that one can import ProRes.

     

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." 2021 iMac w Big Sur [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

  • Thu, Oct 14 2010 5:05 PM In reply to

    • dermot
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    Re: DS and today's cameras

    Ok, so the shinny print material talks up MC's AMA,

    -BUT-

    the reality seems to be a recomnendation to actualy transcode to DNxHD for editing...

    So where is diffrent from DS's copy-link & cashe?

    Other than the "copy" part of copy-link?

    I really don't get the point of the rant

    And i have never seen audio attached to files from RED or D21 yet.. so... yea....  David, i can live without it, actualy i would not notice either way...

    Who actualy records sound on a Red or D21 or Alexa? No one i know of....

    d/

     

     

     

     

     

    8600 - 3700 - AJA 2Ke - u320 array - Dream Color [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Oct 14 2010 5:15 PM In reply to

    Re: DS and today's cameras

    There is also a semantic issue of what "native support" really means. All edit system manufacturers will hapilly tell you they "nativelly" support the RED whereas only a few actually do. I wrote about "native" vs. "direct" RED support several years ago.

    If you support the logic of the argument that RED is supported nativelly on the DS and most other systems, then ProRes is also supported nativelly on the DS.

    Would I like to see AMA-like functionality in DS? Of course! But AMA is not panacea. There are real world limitations in some cases.

    Igor Ridanovic

    www.HDhead.com

    Filed under:
  • Thu, Oct 14 2010 5:22 PM In reply to

    • GusC
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    Re: DS and today's cameras

    gevalt:
    on what planet do you find this ACCEPTABLE????

    Planet online where we only use audio from offline? 

    Easy on the all caps...Wink

  • Thu, Oct 14 2010 5:32 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: DS and today's cameras

    Dermot,

    I am not talking about Red media here.   I am talking about ProRes.  A much simpler format to deal with as I understand.

    Does the AMA implementation of ProRes usage in a MC work perfectly?  No, But it gets you going. 

    My point there is that we DS customers do not even have that somewhat imperfect tool.

    My other point is how if Avid could aggressively promote "DNX in a MXF wrapper" in the acquisition world, this would al be a not issue.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." 2021 iMac w Big Sur [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

  • Thu, Oct 14 2010 5:52 PM In reply to

    • gevalt
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    Re: DS and today's cameras

    sorry if i sounded harsh, but the entire issue revolves around us having to deal with workarounds and so someone is suggesting ANOTHER half measure.

     

    you are exactly correct that ds should be able to access all these files directly.

     

    no workarounds, no half measures, no video only scenarios.

     

    again, sorry if i sounded harsh.

     

    david

     

    now... MC 2018 w/ Mojo DX on a Mac Pro 5,1 tower. previously, Avid DS Nitris v10.3 xw8400 and before that, as far back as MC 3 on a Mac IIfx [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Oct 14 2010 5:55 PM In reply to

    • GusC
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    Re: DS and today's cameras

    Igor Ridanovic:
    There are real world limitations in some cases.

    I might even add 'Many' or 'Most'.  AMA is great for bringing in a QT if the offline and playing.  Beyond that it brings the Post Production process pretty much to a halt.

  • Thu, Oct 14 2010 6:08 PM In reply to

    • dermot
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    Re: DS and today's cameras

    jef:
    I am not talking about Red media here.   I am talking about ProRes.  A much simpler format to deal with as I understand.

    Yea... they both seem about the same by now, i have worked on a ton more RED than ProRez, but i know that will be changing.. no real issues with either, i far prefer to work with RAW tho..

    jef:
    Does the AMA implementation of ProRes usage in a MC work perfectly?  No, But it gets you going. 

    But will AMA save the (ab)use of your 7Tb of storage? Prolly not... you would need to transcode from the sounds of it (my MC's are v4 still as they are working on a project)

    jef:
    My point there is that we DS customers do not even have that somewhat imperfect tool.

    But we do have copy-link, or a straight link

    jef:
    My other point is how if Avid could aggressively promote "DNX in a MXF wrapper" in the acquisition world, this would al be a not issue

    I don't think Avid has the tools needed to push the camera mfg's into accepting DNxHD yet

    I'm assuming the 444-ness of ProRez is the deciding factor over 422 only DNxHD, i would rather have ProRez @ 444 if i'm finishing in 444.

    I would love to see a compressed proxie option in DS when working in DCI2K for example, but it needs to be a 444 compressed proxie, same compression with two uses

    I agree that it needs to be, both for capture & for post workflows, and i'm betting it will happen... i think it's in Symp already? Not sure about that... beside Symp tops out at HD, and 2K/3K/4K is needed so the Symp's compressed DnxHD (if it's really there) is only partialy useful.. but a good start

    d

     

     

    8600 - 3700 - AJA 2Ke - u320 array - Dream Color [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Oct 14 2010 6:23 PM In reply to

    • ManChicken
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    Re: DS and today's cameras

    gevalt:

    are you listening to yourself??? ONLY IF YOU HAVE AUDIO????

    on what planet do you find this ACCEPTABLE????

    Considering I wrote it, yes I am listening.

    I didn't say it was "acceptable" but that it's a bug in DS that will undoubetdly be addressed, probably sooner than later.  But for video-only shoots (they happen all the time) there is nothing keeping you from using ProRes in DS right now.

    I understand now that Jef was really referring to so-called 'NATIVE' access a-la MC AMA, which of course everyone here would like.

     

  • Thu, Oct 14 2010 7:31 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: DS and today's cameras

    GusC:

    Igor Ridanovic:
    There are real world limitations in some cases.

    I might even add 'Many' or 'Most'.  AMA is great for bringing in a QT if the offline and playing.  Beyond that it brings the Post Production process pretty much to a halt.

    Hi Gus,

    As stated in my OP, the majority of my work these days is offline / online in DS.  So if I can immediately bring in the ProRes material, lock a cut and then deal with only transcoding what is needed, I have a better chance of selling DS to to clients.

    The situation as it is now is not a good selling tool for DS.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." 2021 iMac w Big Sur [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

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