Latest post Fri, May 14 2010 8:28 PM by OliverPeters. 163 replies.
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  • Mon, May 10 2010 9:37 PM In reply to

    • NICKB
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    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    Yes DS software has to be the ONLY way of increasing the user base of DS so if you accept that we need to figure out the price it should sell for.

    My feeling is somewhere between $2999 to $9999 what do others think?

  • Mon, May 10 2010 9:39 PM In reply to

    • jef
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    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    The big area that would keep Job from upgrading his Symphony to a DS is the one way street that is DS.

    Currently he can share projects on all 3 systems.

    With DS as it stands, the moment he goes into that room, he can't leave till he is finished. 

    Raises the cost of his operation.

    DS soft is a bit of an answer.

    Jef

    Avid DS 11.0.2 R.I.P | MC "Well, it depends ..." 2021 iMac w Big Sur [view my complete system specs]

    _____________________________________________

    Jef Huey

    Senior Editor

  • Mon, May 10 2010 9:45 PM In reply to

    • dltarr
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    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    jef:

    The big area that would keep Job from upgrading his Symphony to a DS is the one way street that is DS.

    Currently he can share projects on all 3 systems.

    With DS as it stands, the moment he goes into that room, he can't leave till he is finished. 

    Raises the cost of his operation.

    DS soft is a bit of an answer.

    Jef

    Yep, I/O is a big need.  Although, I'd think getting things into the DS would be the larger problem (w/o a DS AMA).  Once you go into the DS, I wouldn't think you'd want/need to go to a lesser machine very often.  Am I wrong?

  • Mon, May 10 2010 9:59 PM In reply to

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    NICKB:
    I fear all Symphony and DS owners seem to really want to do is differentiate themselves from the crowd the my machine is better than the guys down the street so come and work at our place kind of thinking.
    Or is it the thinking of people who KNOW their craft, KNOW the tools that enable them to get the best out of every job AND are PREPARED to PAY for those tools?

    Imaging the sceams if Avid merged Symphony and MC and the entry level price of $2500 increased by even $500. 

    If the forums history is any guide then two days after announcing the merging of MC and Symphony the clamouring would start DS's features to be ported to it.

    Why?because

    NICKB:
    EVERYONE should have the best tools to do a creative job at their fingertips
    Reality is they can all have the best tools right now.... they just have to pay for what they want.

  • Mon, May 10 2010 10:57 PM In reply to

    • NICKB
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    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    AndrewAction:
    Reality is they can all have the best tools right now.... they just have to pay for what they want.

    You can have the best tools and this is a price list.

    Avid MC as best cutting tool $2500

    After effects / Adobe package as best graphics tool $2000

    DaVinci as best grading tool                               $995

    Nuke as best 3D composite tool                          $3500

     

    All the above are good tools at good prices, now the DS has many advantages over those tools but can it seduce those artists to use DS instead?

    It also seems to me the DS is just not as accessible as it needs to be for it to develop into a vibrant creative user base.(not that the present users are not vibrant and creative but you know what i mean)

    Another scary point to make is

    What is the average age of a DS artist? My guess 40 -50 years old

    What is the average age of a Nuke artist? My guess 25-30 years old

    And the producer only dropped out of school last week!

  • Mon, May 10 2010 11:02 PM In reply to

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    tonyjover:

    Job ter Burg:
    m OK with Symph and DS merging into a single hi-end finishing box. Preferably with full and utter project sharing with MC.

    Let's clear this up quickly and simply.  DS already has a superior CC tool to Symph, and a superior tracker.  So the ONLY thing missing from the above equation (but it's huuuuuge) is project sharing. 

    DS's methodology is very different to MC/Phony so I don't know whether native Bin sharing could ever be economically possible for DS, but it would be a great move if it could.

    Tony

     

    Guys,

    Job is a film editor. Job is the perfect example of someone who needs the Symphy and has little use for the DS. Here's a shortlist of a few features he'd be painfully missing in DS beyond project sharing:

    No true Universal Mastering

    No advanced EDL output, no change lists

    No ALE output, no print bin

    No AMA in

    No AAF output

    No batch output of clips or sequences

    No decompose or transcode

    No Autosync, no multicam, no aux TC reading

    No ScriptSync

    No real trim-on-the-fly

    No play in bin

     

     

    I'm not even getting into all the minor details here, like how opposite it is to edit with. DS does not answer all the needs of a Symph/MC editor, or vice versa. Trying to convince Job of getting into DS instead of Symphony will not be right for anybody. I believe he's a good example of the market Dave was alluding to. There IS a market.

    There's no way Avid can ever "fuse" together DS and Symphony (other than conseptually when/if they write something new from scratch), as there's not a single line of code they have in common, they come from completely opposite places, and both are old, complex tools with too many compromises implemented already. The challenges Avid are facing are not easy ones. Both DS and MC have dedicated user bases who cares deeply about the tiniest details of the software.

    The sweet spot for DS Software is probably no more than $1499. And that's AFTER it's on W7 with a darker interface and AMA support, and they've added a better tracker.

    K

  • Mon, May 10 2010 11:43 PM In reply to

    • mrmikster
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    • Moderator: Avid DS
      Moderator: MetaFuze

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    Most of the films I've worked on, have used multiple MC systems not Symphony to cut on. Understood that DS is lacking in most of the areas you've mentioned above (trim on the fly seems to work fine here), but by the time a cut is moved to Symphony, it's in the finishing stages and that's where the reduced toolset really slows the process.

    I've cut Indies on DS, but for your typical Hollywood feature, MC is the golden standard, not Symphony.

     

    Michael Forrest

    "There are no rules for the brave". Albert Einstein

  • Tue, May 11 2010 12:08 AM In reply to

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    Sorry for the long post....

    The question that I have posed to AVID several times over the past ten years is why didn’t AVID merge MC and DS long ago.  Whether or not it was the “official” reason AVID bought DS/Softimage, it was the reason we were given by AVID when we purchased Symphony and DS in 2000.  The reasoning went something like this.  “Media Composer had reached a design dead end and could not be developed to include advanced compositing and graphics.  We (AVID) purchased technology that would give us those features.”   It was part of the “Total Conform” ideology.  Soon you will be able to offline in MC and finish in DS… the project will transfer “seamlessly” from offline to online.  For whatever reason, the convergence of the two products never happened.  It would be very enlightening to our discussion to know why.  With that insight we would learn why AVID sees MC as their Total Conform solution and DS as some DI or non-mainstream finishing application. 

                Here is what I think the problem/opportunity AVID has.  Without the compositing container workflow, Media Composer or Final Cut Pro or Vegas or anything else will never be able to match DS’s potential.   All other approaches require external 3rd party plugin workarounds to do the job DS has done natively since the beginning.  During one telephone conference I had a few years ago an AVID representative advise me to buy After Effects to add to our Media Composer to solve MC’s text and compositing limitations!  I replied that they ALREADY own a product can that give advanced  graphics and compositing to MC. 

    The message was clear then and it apparently has not changed now.  Media Composer is perfect and does not need to be changed.   It is not “old” or “stale” and we have an installed base of owners and operators (LA/Hollywood) that will scream bloody murder if we “orphan” all those systems by releasing a new platform and discontinue the current MC design.   

    If you think that is a good business model then give the CEO’s of CMX or AMPEX or RCA a call and ask how that whole “we are the industry standard” thingy is workin’ out for ya.

                The competition for new business is a real problem for AVID.  AVID spends millions developing professional i/o hardware for their software and AJA and Blackmagic do APPLE and ADOBE a big favor and develop hardware for FREE!  Apple and Adobe then sell their software at door buster prices to build a base for future purchases.  Never mind that Apple does not seem to care much about FCP as a profit center.  AVID is professional hardware and software.  It is expensive and it just works right out of the box.  But FCP and Adobe are also good too…. sometimes good enough considering the price difference.  Now we are competing with FCP post houses that have  a  much smaller investment and it is becoming harder to differentiate the technical quality differences between AVID and the other guys.   

                Make no mistake about it, when we replace our DS’s it will NOT be with a Media Composer.  We chose DS over all other systems, including MC, because of the DS software design and workflow.  Media Composer does not have the graphics and effects compositing features that we rely on for every job we do. 

    We want to upgrade our DS’s, not replace them with some other system.  We can only do that if AVID supports and develops DS.   If DS is not the future then put the best of DS into MC or the best of MC into DS… I don’t care what you call it.    Release several versions, from low cost software only costing $1000 to compete with FCP  to higher cost turnkey systems.  All with AMA, all with the ability to share a project, all with DS’s graphics and compositing toolsets.  Give users a reason to NOT consider FCP or Smoke as their next purchase.

     

    Joe Askins

    Rock Creative, Nashville.

     

     

  • Tue, May 11 2010 12:21 AM In reply to

    • dermot
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    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    NICKB:
    Avid MC as best cutting tool $2500

    Yup, and i own three of them, and wil be upgradeing them ASAP

    NICKB:
    After effects / Adobe package as best graphics tool $2000

    Don't know, can't say... we don't do alot of GFX work, and when we do it goes to DS, and that's the choice of the artist i hire to do this kind of work, who thinks DS's paint tools clearly & cleanly wacks Adobe's, and would rather wait to get on the DS at night than to work in AE.

    NICKB:
    DaVinci as best grading tool    $995

    A good gradeing tool, at this level they all have strength's and weaknesses... but even a minimal suite is going to be 15K with interface, scopes and a mon... still i am interested in seeing if i can get an ROI that works.. but only if DS does not show up with an interface, layers in CC & a dark UI first.. in that case the interoperability and intergration of DS into the existing structure will make it the first choice.

    NICKB:
    Nuke as best 3D composite tool $3500

    Oh yea.. but way more than 3.5K for a rock'n Nuke station - z800/4800/16Gig ram/4Tb SAS array/Aja 2Ke / DreamColor / Scopes / NukeX + Tinders + Furnace... but RT from cashes on the array, a good broadast mon & scopes makes it real world usefull with producer's in the room, and a flame killer

    NICKB:
    What is the average age of a DS artist? My guess 40 -50 years old

    I'd not bet against this... but alot of us are owners as well... and that comes with time

    NICKB:
    What is the average age of a Nuke artist? My guess 25-30 years old

    Yup again, although the really good ones have spent 10+ years on a Flame, Maya, Houdini, DS etc... and are over 40 for the most part, a few i know are pushing 50.. but they are the real deal, and again it comes with time in the seat

    Good idea's Nick... i like this discussion ;-)

     

    d/ who's so old he's even over 50....

     

     

     

     

     

    8600 - 3700 - AJA 2Ke - u320 array - Dream Color [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, May 11 2010 12:55 AM In reply to

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    mrmikster:

    Most of the films I've worked on, have used multiple MC systems not Symphony to cut on. Understood that DS is lacking in most of the areas you've mentioned above (trim on the fly seems to work fine here), but by the time a cut is moved to Symphony, it's in the finishing stages and that's where the reduced toolset really slows the process.

    I've cut Indies on DS, but for your typical Hollywood feature, MC is the golden standard, not Symphony.

    MC is one golden standard, and MC is a subset of Symphony. There are editors (like Job) who have had their MC's for a very long time, and upgraded them to Symphonies along the way. A Symphony finisher is very often a MC editor with a few added skills.

    I agree there's a need for a "higher end" finishing companion to MC, but it will not be Symphony and it obviously isn't DS.

    Not Symph because: The architecture does not allow it, there are core features that likely cannot be rewritten. No support for alpha channels on single layers is one such vital core limitation. This means Symph can never do real compositing.

    Not DS because: The architecture does not allow it, and there are core features that likely cannot be rewritten. Media object management being one such item. Also the DS methodology is too different from MC editing to really qualify without it becoming something else than DS.

    mrmikster:
    (trim on the fly seems to work fine here)

    Define "fine".

    K

  • Tue, May 11 2010 1:01 AM In reply to

    • TCurren
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    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    NICKB:

    You can have the best tools and this is a price list.

    Avid MC as best cutting tool $2500

    After effects / Adobe package as best graphics tool $2000

    DaVinci as best grading tool                               $995

    Nuke as best 3D composite tool                          $3500

     

    All the above are good tools at good prices,

     

     

    You left out one important thing those all have in common, along with the 15K Smoke. They all can run on a Mac. big difference in our market whether we like it or not.

    Symphony Nitris Classic, Symphony DX, MC Soft, MC Adrenaline, MC Adrenaline HD, Unity, Terrablock, ProTools [view my complete system specs]

    Terence Curren Alpha Dogs, Inc.

    Burbank, Ca

    www.alphadogs.tv

    www.digitalservicestation.com

    www.editorslounge.com

  • Tue, May 11 2010 1:02 AM In reply to

    • NICKB
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    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    Why don't you guys rate Smoke on a MAC?

  • Tue, May 11 2010 1:22 AM In reply to

    • NICKB
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    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    TCurren:
    You left out one important thing those all have in common, along with the 15K Smoke. They all can run on a Mac. big difference in our market whether we like it or not.

     

    Yes and that's applies to my set up.

    I can consider Smoke it is an affordable £10k in the UK but if i wanted an Avid DS i would have to start again and buy a new turnkey system costing £40k which would it seems then make me a member of an unhappy user base!

  • Tue, May 11 2010 1:26 AM In reply to

    • Marc Fish
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    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    TCurren:

    NICKB:

    You can have the best tools and this is a price list.

    Avid MC as best cutting tool $2500

    After effects / Adobe package as best graphics tool $2000

    DaVinci as best grading tool                               $995

    Nuke as best 3D composite tool                          $3500

     

    All the above are good tools at good prices,

    You left out one important thing those all have in common, along with the 15K Smoke. They all can run on a Mac. big difference in our market whether we like it or not.

    Well, you both completely ignored 1 HUGE glaring fault with your list.

    the fact that i would then need to lean 4 or 5 different apps, and have at least 2 or 3 computers and rooms for these apps to run, at least in a Post Shop mentality. Would you run MC DX, and a Blackmagic board too? cause that's what you would need for all that to be on 1 machine. have fun with that. So you're price comparison is way off at the point you want to actually, ya know, output.

    MC, then switch to nuke for a few hours of compositing, while the MC project is put on hold. when i'm done compositing, go back to MC, finish up my edit, export a QT REF and open DaVinci, import my QT REF and either use an edl or scene detection to cut it up (which you have to check anyway, cause ya know, it's not entirely 100%) then start coloring, meanwhile, my producer wants to see a different cut from a different project. He has to wait, i'm working in DaVinci right now,a nd the switch over will more than likely crach my hardware output board. Ahh.. All finished. now, do i import it back into MC (tick tock tick tock) or output from Davinci? Well, while i'm thinking about that, whynot archive all my files from all my different apps, so in case i have to opent them up in a future version. which, at this point, who knows if it'll open. 5yrs from now, adobe my have been bought by Sony and the project file no longer works the same..

    And as much as i don't like Windows, The DS does all the above mentioned apps, in 1 very flexible and intuitive interface. Archive all you compositing, colocr correction and edit with sequences into 1 archive. and you can even archive your media to tape, just in case your client left with all the tapes and int hat 5yrs away, they got destroyed.

    Sure, it's laking in some areas, I'll be the first to say so, and not give Avid any ease for their lack of development. it all comes down to the major reason this thread was started. Marketing.

  • Tue, May 11 2010 1:57 AM In reply to

    • mrmikster
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    • Moderator: Avid DS
      Moderator: MetaFuze

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    MC is one golden standard, and MC is a subset of Symphony. There are editors (like Job) who have had their MC's for a very long time, and upgraded them to Symphonies along the way. A Symphony finisher is very often a MC editor with a few added skills.

    I agree there's a need for a "higher end" finishing companion to MC, but it will not be Symphony and it obviously isn't DS.

    Not Symph because: The architecture does not allow it, there are core features that likely cannot be rewritten. No support for alpha channels on single layers is one such vital core limitation. This means Symph can never do real compositing.

    Not DS because: The architecture does not allow it, and there are core features that likely cannot be rewritten. Media object management being one such item. Also the DS methodology is too different from MC editing to really qualify without it becoming something else than DS.

    mrmikster:
    (trim on the fly seems to work fine here)

    I think you're painting with a very broad stroke here Knut. What is obvious to you is not as clear to our clients who finish shows with us every day, week in and out. In our little part of the world, DS is being used to finish a great variety of projects, from Feature Trailers to Broadcast Shows and Commercials. Same thing for Symphony. As for the development of Symphony, I remember being told that it could never do HD, that the code was too complicated and how it was thought that you could never get Red working on MC. How did they manage that? Easy they allocated enough resources to develop where they thought best to.

    The whole "methodology being different from MC" argument doesn't hold water with me. How many MC editors have taken to FCP recently, how many are jumping on the trial for Smac? You go where the toolset best suits you. Over the years, I've trained a whole lot of MC editors on DS. They seem to be doing just fine with the DS methodology.

    "Define "fine"."

    Fine, I'll define fine with more finesse Stick out tongue It means I can trim/slip on the fly, the only difference from MC, is DS' one sided playback. As my daddy used to say, "It looks good from my house" Don't know what that meant, but he said it.

    Michael Forrest

    "There are no rules for the brave". Albert Einstein

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