Latest post Fri, May 14 2010 8:28 PM by OliverPeters. 163 replies.
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  • Sat, May 8 2010 4:17 AM In reply to

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    We just don't see it this way at Avid.  Scott mentioned this before and I tried to answer, but we really see all of the products serving specific needs and working together in the production environment.  Is there convergence, well, of course.  In any industry you see convergence of technology where innovation starts at the high end and works it's way down market.  It happens in the auto industry all the time.  The other thing is education,  I'm not even sure that the current generation of editors are thinking in terms of off-line, mastering, finishing. It's not the way the future generation of artists are trained to think. But there is no reason to believe that technology will not stay ahead with a feature set the allows for technical differentiation to exist in products, especially in the high end with products like DS and Symphony.  There can always be innovation for differentiation.

     

    Dave

  • Sat, May 8 2010 4:27 AM In reply to

    • Marc Fish
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    • Joined on Thu, Apr 1 2010
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    • Points 400

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    "Marketing-Marketing - is he satsfied with the current state of affairs?

    Pretty much, the marketing budget is fair for DS and proportionate to other products in the company.  DS was featured at NAB this year on the show floor and at IBC and NAB last year.  Do I want more, of course I do! Should we do more, of course we should.  Look for a change on how Avid market's their products.  I know some of you have had a conversation with the New VP of marketing, and I'm sure his energy will transform into a different direction on marketing all of Avid's products."

    eck eck... um, thank god i wasn't drinking any water when i read this.

    I don't know what they put in your water at Tewks, but to say DS' marketing and Advertising is proportionate to other  products in the CO. is about as bad as the new Shake Weight. Are you Kidding?? cause if it is the same, where are those dollars being spent? certainly not on DS, maybe to help pay to maintain a webserver or something, but not on DS in the visual advertsing sense. where's the DS ad in the magaiznes, where's the banners on websites, where's the advertsing on Avid's own website? OR even better, how about a better way to find DS, as Jason pointed out today, he thought he was loosing his mind, he couldn't find DS.. mind loss is another story..

    And to say DS was featured at NAB, from what i hear, Sony had a better DS prescense that Avid...

    is this really the kind of answers we can expect? the same ole same ole? what's that old saying, fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.  we all listend to the Corp answers last yr. and the yr before that.. are we really supposed to believe it again? the only reason last year was differnt than the previous, was Marianna.

     

    I've worked in video production since I was in high school, I have a degree in Television Production, worked in various production positions over the years (Shooting, editing, graphic, broadcast), I've worked in this industry for almost 16 years.  I held just about every job at Media 100, helped Boris run Boris FX for 2 years and then came to Avid 2 years ago. I know a lot about the industry and I'm pretty technical.

    using that to mean you know DS is like me saying "because i deal with RED footage on a day to day basis, i know the RED camera."

    When will Avid get a real DS specialist in house, to really advocate what the benefits are compared to the other products?

    Dave, i don't mean this to be personal, but you must understand, we as the DS community have had one person after another say that things are going up, or will get better, or there's more to come. And aside from what Sylvain and his team are able to pull out with their limited resources (i do hope we have more than 2 developers now) We as a group, haven't seen Avid Walk the Walk. just Talk the talk. and it's tiring and ...

    well, you get the idea.

    marc

  • Sat, May 8 2010 4:35 AM In reply to

    • Marc Fish
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Thu, Apr 1 2010
    • Posts 26
    • Points 400

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    Dave Avid PM:

    We just don't see it this way at Avid.  Scott mentioned this before and I tried to answer, but we really see all of the products serving specific needs and working together in the production environment.  Is there convergence, well, of course.  In any industry you see convergence of technology where innovation starts at the high end and works it's way down market.  It happens in the auto industry all the time.  The other thing is education,  I'm not even sure that the current generation of editors are thinking in terms of off-line, mastering, finishing. It's not the way the future generation of artists are trained to think. But there is no reason to believe that technology will not stay ahead with a feature set the allows for technical differentiation to exist in products, especially in the high end with products like DS and Symphony.  There can always be innovation for differentiation.

     

    Dave

    What this doesn't say is that, Avid realizes that Symphony and DS compete for the same market share.

    no post house will buy a SYmphony and a DS just to have the m both. they buy 1, or the other.

    And Dual Boot is a bad idea, cause once most place start using one side, they won't switch.

     

    So why is Composer and Symphony continuing as 2 seperate products, esp since they're so much alike?

  • Sat, May 8 2010 4:46 AM In reply to

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    Thanks for comments Marc. Yeah, I get it and I understand too.  Don't think I said things are going up, getting better or more to come or whatever you think I said.  Just trying to answer the questions as best I can. As for knowing DS,  I mean I guess you can come to Tewks and I'll take a DS quiz for you. Not sure how you want me to prove this on a blog.  I don't know why you would think there are not any DS experts at Avid.  But we'd be happy to invite anybody in who can help us make the product better.  

    Thanks, glad I spent the time to try and interact.

    Take care,

    Dave

  • Sat, May 8 2010 5:02 AM In reply to

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    Hi Marc,

    Avid doesn't see DS and Symphony this way.  You know this of course, but DS has a lot more advanced features than Symphony.  We still see a big market for the on-line conform and universal mastering market, and advanced CC. It's a specific seat and Symphony does very well in the market.  We do want more differentiation for all of the products, of course. The market is calling for high end features to be brought down market and we have to react to stay competitive.  It is true that with v5, RGB did make this a bit closer. In the end, we see Symphony seats and DS seats in different markets.  The dual boot system does muddy the waters, I agree with that.  

    Take care,

    Dave

     

  • Sat, May 8 2010 8:05 AM In reply to

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    Dave Avid PM:

    Hi,

    First off, I am really sorry to be such a mystery man, that's not my intention at all.  Actually Avid has an excellent internal communication chain and Marianna leads the charge in letting know the what the community has been saying.  

    Being the Product Manager for DS (as well as the Product Manager for  Media Composer, Symphony and NewsCutter) I set the roadmap (with feedback from many, many internal and external sources) and direct the development teams on upcoming releases.  Along with being the PM for DS, I also manage the Product Management and Product Design teams for the professional products at Avid.

    Hi Dave,

    Thx for joining the community. After Marianna posted that we could expect you here, I decided to wait and see what you would have to say.

    My problem here is predominantly present in the quotes. Not attacking you personally being a mystery man but Avid management not finding it necessary for its professional products manager joining this community as part of the "new thinking". I saw this as an extension of the lack of communication both marketing wise and inside this community.

    It's as if Marianna has to drag every manager by the ears to make them do what your CEO Gary Greenfield has told us would happen. Not just you.... all of you!!! Why is that? Is the community not of a high enough standard? I would like you to explain in detail why you were not here till now.

    Now saying that Avid's marketing is correctly distributed across all its products is something that on the receiving side of the line I can't confirm. Now I'm not a DS or symphony user but I have never ever seen anybody from Avid trying to explain its products spectrum and its integration. And my understanding is that is because it's integration is a problem till this day. 

    Dave I see very promising movements in the right direction recently but it requires people like you to explain to us what went wrong all these years and how you believe you are going to take the Avid products forward so we understand how viable our workflows are. And that being a continuous process without having to ask Marianna to ask you or who-ever every time.

    Regards,

    From the old Apple Quadro 950 to HP Z8xx. My current own systems: 1x Z420 E5 1650 32GB memory quadro K2200, 1x XW8600, 2x 3.0Ghz Quadcore, 24GB memory... [view my complete system specs]

    Jeroen van Eekeres 

    Technical director, Broadcast support engineer, Avid ACSR.

     

    Always have a backup of your projects....Always!!!! Yes Always!!!!

    A.V.I.D....... Another Version In Development

    www.mediaoffline.com

     

     

     

  • Sat, May 8 2010 1:36 PM In reply to

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    I can certainly see why you would think this, it's is very understandable.   I certainly follow the on-line community very closely, but really I have relied on Marianna and Sylvain, Edith and Vincent to pass on information to me.  A lot of the inside information is then passed back to you from me (and other PM's for other products).  So, while you don't see me posting he, I am posting through other people.  I'll be more active on these boards, but I have to admit that it is difficult.  I was on last night at 1am (ET) and I'm back on at 8am this morning.  What you really need to know is that Avid REALLY does follow your comments very closely, and does react (publically and internally) to what is said here.  With Gary and Kirk's administration it is a requirement to reach out to our customers and engage at all levels.   I'm not trying to be corporate here, I'm telling you the truth.  

    I can't explain the past, and I really won't.  I have worked at Avid for 2 years now and the industry for a long time and am quite atune to the great things that Avid has done with all of their products, and the bad things that have happened.  I'm more focused on the future and I'm driving my Product team to make products that will work for our customers whether it's DS, Media Composer, Symphony, NewsCutter or something that we haven't created yet.

    I'm never going to win the Marketing argument with this group, and it's unfortunate that this was the first question to me.  I know how strong the opinion here is about this subject and I'll leave it at that.  It has been duly noted for sure.

    I promise to provide as much input as I can in as much as I can un-filter the content for you in the future. 

     

    Dave

  • Sat, May 8 2010 4:22 PM In reply to

    • dermot
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Vancouver, Canada
    • Posts 524
    • Points 6,245

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    Dave Avid PM:
    I'm never going to win the Marketing argument with this group, and it's unfortunate that this was the first question to me.  I know how strong the opinion here is about this subject and I'll leave it at that.  It has been duly noted for sure.

    Hye Dave, i'm glad you've joined the par-tay... and yea that was my question about marketing you answered first - do i win a prize? Some grey antlers maybe?

    I'm also glad you have some experience with DS, this is a good thing... you have the basic understanding what it is today, and what it can be, should be & needs to be...

    Knut posted a great list of suggestions, the one i would like to hone in on is his suggestion that the DS software be put back on the "for sale" list & rolled into the Symp bundle, and discounted for MC owners - this can be done pretty much instantly should it be a path you would chose to walk down.. so i guess the challange is - do you want to get more seats of DS up and running?

    So back to this;

    Dave Avid PM:
    I'm never going to win the Marketing argument with this group.

    Maybe we should all drop the "win/lose" and "argument" mindset, and try to move forward with the idea of growing the user base, increasing the resources tasked to development so we can get a dark UI, layers in the CC tool, big balls, a workable 3D compositing inviroment, intergrated AMA on and on... getting more butts in the seats is needed, and acheavable.. for you the end game, and for me a step on the road to getting the tools i need.. we all want the same thing really

    On we go.. and yea this is a hard crowd.. and for a good reason... and, and, and... not much sympthany for finishing work at 1am, and being back at it by 8am... that's easy hours for the majority of us here i would bet.. it's biz as usual for moi.... i started breaking down a script for VFX at 5:30 am local time, ran DS last night until 6pm, switched to Nuke to do a shot that needed 3D space, shutdown just after 11:30pm... so we are about the same hours, but i do this 200+ days a year.

    But i did have the canucks/black hawks game on while comp'n... stlil counts as work tho!

     

    d/

     

     

     

     

     

     

    8600 - 3700 - AJA 2Ke - u320 array - Dream Color [view my complete system specs]
  • Sun, May 9 2010 8:00 AM In reply to

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    Dave Avid PM:

    I can't explain the past, and I really won't.  I have worked at Avid for 2 years now and the industry for a long time and am quite attune to the great things that Avid has done with all of their products, and the bad things that have happened.  I'm more focused on the future and I'm driving my Product team to make products that will work for our customers whether it's DS, Media Composer, Symphony, Newscutter or something that we haven't created yet.

    Dave,

    I agree that focusing on the present and future should be your primary task. But the past can't be un-done and is responsible for where we are now. I'm not interested in any blaming but feel a need of understanding and see that this need is shared by a number of community members. Past actions have left Avid's user base with uncertainties, The "closed Avid culture" of the past resulting in speculation and users walking to other manufacturers. I honestly believe that taking away these uncertainties should be part of a healthy marketing campaign and would require Avid to deal with the past. Just once and then turn the page.

    Dave Avid PM:
    I'm never going to win the Marketing argument with this group, and it's unfortunate that this was the first question to me.  I know how strong the opinion here is about this subject and I'll leave it at that.  It has been duly noted for sure.

    If you see this as an argument, then yes it's unlikely you win. If you see it as an opportunity to point out where Avid's current strategy differs from its previous you might win a lot. People here passionately search for reasons to stick with Avid and keep using its tools. Why not take the opportunity and supply those reasons?

    Regards,

    From the old Apple Quadro 950 to HP Z8xx. My current own systems: 1x Z420 E5 1650 32GB memory quadro K2200, 1x XW8600, 2x 3.0Ghz Quadcore, 24GB memory... [view my complete system specs]

    Jeroen van Eekeres 

    Technical director, Broadcast support engineer, Avid ACSR.

     

    Always have a backup of your projects....Always!!!! Yes Always!!!!

    A.V.I.D....... Another Version In Development

    www.mediaoffline.com

     

     

     

  • Mon, May 10 2010 2:33 AM In reply to

    • floppyd
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Mon, Mar 17 2008
    • Richmond, Virginia
    • Posts 92
    • Points 1,115

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    Dave, even though it is "unofficial", do you follow the DS-List on Google Groups?

  • Mon, May 10 2010 3:52 AM In reply to

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    Yes, I do subscribe to the google ds list.  I don't respond, but read the feedback.

     

    Dave

  • Mon, May 10 2010 7:22 AM In reply to

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    Dave Avid PM:
    ...

    Avid doesn't see DS and Symphony this way.  You know this of course, but DS has a lot more advanced features than Symphony.  We still see a big market for the on-line conform and universal mastering market, and advanced CC. It's a specific seat and Symphony does very well in the market. ...

    Dave, thank you for jumping into the lions' den. I'll contribute my own swipe, but please don't take it personally.

    You say in the above that Avid sees Symphony's CC toolset as being an important feature, yet it has not been meaningfully improved in a decade. Users have been clamoring for improvements, and the neglect of Symphony has been noted many times on these boards and other places.

    So how can you say that Avid sees the need for Symphony's cutting edge CC tools and at the same time oversee the last two years of those tools languishing? By way of contrast (no pun intended) Red's free RedCine-X has grown into a reasonably powerful tool from not even being in existence a few years ago and Color has been improved under Apple's ownership to the point where it is considered a viable finishing alternative.

    Speaking of Color, it appears that Avid has completely and utterly ignored Color and wished it would just go away. Adding keyframes to MC/Symphony's CC toolset is not an adequate response.

    How do you reconcile the stated need for Symphony's advanced CC tools and neglect these tools have experienced? If it's important, why has it not been developed? And more importantly, will things improve?

    Again, I hope this didn't sound too personal, and thank you for taking the time to read this and hopefully crafting a reply that is true to your self-characterization of no BS.

    "When I spent 60k on a discreet edit digisuite system 10 years ago someone came up to me to offer fcp 2, I said it was a scam too." -Ric

  • Mon, May 10 2010 9:00 AM In reply to

    • tonyjover
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 13 2005
    • Birmingham UK
    • Posts 397
    • Points 4,735
    • Moderator: Avid DS

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    Dave, gee, where do I start?  At the beginning I guess (warning, long post)...

    Dave Avid PM:
    My day is pretty much 100 miles an hour when I walk in the door at Avid and it continues pretty much all week.

    I appreciate that.  From what I've seen it's pretty typical for any Avid employee.

    Dave Avid PM:
    Marketing-Marketing - is he satsfied with the current state of affairs?
    Pretty much.

    Well, that's incredibly sad.  To leave a product languishing with no PR for several years (Oliver himself noted that he hadn't received a Press Release about DS since v7.6), no DS-specific industry press news, no trumpeting of new features (difficult when there aren't any, I accept), no magazine articles, in fact a total absence of any DS-Centric marketing for many years and to then say you're "pretty much" satisfied with the current state of affairs says to us quite simply that you have no interest in marketing DS.  Why bother manufacturing it if you don't want to market it? 

    Dave Avid PM:
     DS was featured at NAB this year on the show floor.

    Oh wow!  Gee!  You showed one of your products on the stand?  What an innovative and exciting marketing initiative! [/irony]

    Dave Avid PM:
    At Avid, there really has never been a battle for features between Symphony and DS.  We really see them as different seats and they both have specific problems that to solve.

    There's your problem.  They're not, and they don't. 
    Some folk take projects from start to finish on a DS, just like Symphony.  Some folks use DS as a grading station, just like Symphony.  Some folk use DS as an advanced finishing system, just like Symphony.  SOME folk (a small percentage) use DS as a DI solution - there's your only fundamental difference, but it's not one that the majority of DS users would appreciate.  Take a look at the "Bragging Rights" thread - 90% of the work listed there is broadcast; it's what the majority of DS users use their DS's for.  DS is, in that respect, a Symphony on steroids.  I could write all day on this subject but I don't want this post to be any longer than it needs to be.  Suffice to say that seeing those two products as fulfilling different needs is to blind yourself to what DS is actually being used for day in, day out, all across the world.

    Dave Avid PM:
     BTW- We wouldn't keep a feature our of DS and place it in Symphony, we just don't do things like that.

    But you WOULD put a feature into MC and keep it out of DS?  No?  How about AMA?  DS can't even conform an AMA-sourced MC project without lots of extra work from the offline house.  How about conforming of Long-GOP sources?  I just lost a job for the BBC last week because of that little gem.

    Dave Avid PM:
    In any industry you see convergence of technology where innovation starts at the high end and works it's way down market.  It happens in the auto industry all the time.

    Yes, you do see that in the auto-industry.  However Avid does it backwards - let's put features into MC and then maybe we'll port them upwards.  Again, I'm thinking of AMA and Long-GOP.

    Dave Avid PM:
    There can always be innovation for differentiation.

    Yes - great idea.  So when are you going to allow Montreal to innovate again?  They used to do a great job of introducing innovative new features on a regular basis until Avid started taking more of an interest in what they were doing.  Then it got the pointless lets-make-it-look-like-an-MC makeover followed by.... zero innovative new features for the last six years.

    Dave Avid PM:
    Avid doesn't see DS and Symphony this way.  You know this of course, but DS has a lot more advanced features than Symphony.  We still see a big market for the on-line conform and universal mastering market, and advanced CC.

    Yes - so do we, the DS users.  It's what we use our DSs for week after week after week.  Why can't Avid see this? 

    You're telling us that you understand how the product is being used.  I'm telling you that you don't.  You don't, because you don't seem to realise that a large percentage of DSs out there in the real world are used for online conforming, universal mastering, advanced image fixing and grading. 

    Does Symphony conform an MC timeline more completely?  Of course, but the advanced toolset offered by DS makes that a pain worth struggling through for those of us who have taken the plunge to upgrade to DS.

    Dave Avid PM:
    we see Symphony seats and DS seats in different markets.

    There's that line again.  Who on earth are you listening to? The post-production market is a lot bigger than just LA, you know.

    Dave Avid PM:
    I'm never going to win the Marketing argument with this group.

    There's absolutely no reason why it has to be an argument Dave. All you have to do is to admit that it's sucked in the past and the new VP of marketing is going to address that deficiency and change it going forward.  Then we'll have agreement.  But please don't repeat that you're "pretty much" satisfied with the status quo because that's an unbelievable comment.

    Dave Avid PM:
    Yes, I do subscribe to the google ds list.  I don't respond, but read the feedback.

    Dave, you said you're a straight-talking honest guy.  So please tell me, do you read the digest yourself, or do you have someone send you a précis?  I can understand if it's the latter as there's an awful lot of rambling OT threads on the Google list that you'd probably not have the time to plough through.

    New question - can we consider a name change back to "Digital Studio"?  Do Corel really want it that much?  Whatever you do, please don't use any name that starts with an 'N' Wink

    Thanks for your time, we truly do appreciate it.

    Tony

  • Mon, May 10 2010 6:13 PM In reply to

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    Dave-

    Here are my questions, if you have the time to address them:

    I know of around 3 or 4 people who are using a DS with media above HD resolution and even less are working with 3D, so for the sake of keeping this discussion to the majority of the relevant workflows lets just ignore that small number of people.

    What would be the reason I would use Symphony over a DS, or Vice Versa, if I was looking for a post house to finish my commercial, television show or feature film?

    Along the same lines, if my commercial, tv show or feature was "offlined" on a media composer or FCP station, why would I look to move the project to a system like DS or Symphony (or for that matter a Smoke)?  With all systems gaining the ability to work with uncompressed media, is the cost of onlining a show on a different system still a justified or necessary expense for production?

    Thanks again!

    -Brian

  • Mon, May 10 2010 7:03 PM In reply to

    Re: Who is the DS Product Manager inside of Avid?

    My recommendation:

     

    1. Make DS conform from AFE trully 100% and keep it current with developments in Media Composer.

    2. Port all extra features from Symphony to Media Composer.

    3. Terminate Symphony.

    Igor Ridanovic

    www.HDhead.com

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