slicker:

How many things from the new wishlist are in the new DS version ( v10.3 ) ?

Thanks,

Laurentiu

Off the top of my head...

• Better file based conform.
• Support for Silicon Imaging, Phantom, WeissCam, Arri D21 Digital formats in realtime and the new RAW formats.
• Proper handling of RED files with an easier LUT workflow.
• Faster response to loading sequences. (It's MUCH faster)
• Faster response while conforming (spelt correctly)

Plus, because they were dropped off the list prior to this release either because we knew they were coming or because they were put in as a surprise...

• Underline
• Support for AVX2
• Support for OFX
• Support for Red Rocket
• RT playback of multiple streams of 2K
• Support for conform of mixed frame-rate sequences
• Quicktime Linking
• Support for all Quicktime codecs

There may be more.

Regards,
Tony

OK, we have now created a list. Now it's time to winnow it.

The idea is to create a list of possibles that we would like to suggest to Avid as extensions to the feature set that we see providing us with needed work going forward.

I do note a little confusion in my mind. Several people sent in requests for 3D stuff and I would like to point out that there is a difference between DS support for stereoscopic workflows (resulting in 3D movies and television) and the 3D DVE, which is different.

I would like to call the two by different names: 3D Movies should be "stereoscopic" and the 3D DVE or the "Marquee" mode should remain 3D DVE and 3D Environment.

What does everyone see that could be omitted (especially in light of the current release of DS Version 10.3).

Well.. since you asked, and i'm outputting DPX for the hours or so;

2010 DS Development Wish List - Dermot's notes!


Drivers and Ingest/Output

   1. Complete drivers/support for Long-GOP sources such as XDCAM and EX for all the devices and software [likewise for other manufacturer's products]
[d] not a big deal to me, i have no issues with off-loading all possiable grunt work, and in this case useing a MC rather than tieing up a DS seems like good thing, but i do run my cut of MC on a serate, but networked machine
   2. A file based ingest work flow that does not rely on Media Composer.
[d] is this aduplicate fo the first? anyway same answer for me.. ilke useing the MC, i like using the software station, and i like using the DS to do work that DS can do
   3. Better file based conform.
[d] if this is another one about point # 1? or point # 10? well... yea... not a priority to me with my workflow..i use DPX & r3d mainly, and it work really well.. i am a fan of Link-Copy for sure....
   4. Able to work with OMF, this includes both import and export including video (for ProTools)
[d] like Tony I thought OMF was pretty much dead?
   5. Better file output options: Render queue / scriptable output / sparse renders; File name based (automatically) on source or timeline frame no/tc, with more user friendly padding options; ability to output to more than one format at a time (ie render once, write to dpx and qt in one step); Automatic creation of resolution folders (like what Baselight does).
[d] This is a big deal to me, and very much needed
   6. A way to script or queue output to tape. (Isn't this part of #5?)
[d] Tape outputs are ALWAYS, ALWAYS supervised, so much less of a deal as i have sentiany human behind the wheel anyway... does ANYONE set a master output and not check / QC it?
   7. OpenEXR Ingest and Output
[d] The film scan houses i work with are not adoption EXR with any great speed or enthiusasm, so until i can get film scan in EXR, it a lower proirity to me, but worthy of dev time, esp for the folks like me who work with  CGI outputs.. but i just get a pile of passes and end in the same place at the end of the day.. takes longer, and is more open to artist errors tho... i would vote for this.. but given there's workarounds - lower than say getting 3D trackers & UI in place.
   8. Digitize across time-code breaks
[d] Tape? what's this thing you call tape? I havn't digitised from a  tape in a loooong time, i play out to them tho..... low prioritiy in my world
   9. AAF/AFE Export of sequences, also for Audio with media embedded.
[d] Yup, even if it was flatened.. something is better than nothing....
  10. Support for Silicon Imaging, Phantom, WeissCam, Arri D21 Digital formats in realtime and the new RAW formats.
[d] Arri RAW is  there now.
  11. XML import-export
[d] Ducking directly with media is on the horizion 
  12. Support for more than 8 audio I/O channels with the AJA card.
[d] YES.... oh yes......
  13. The ability to edit the capture settings for a file after the file or files have been captured and have the result translate to all timelines. Previously rendered clips will show as unrendered.
[d] Not sure i grok this... is this about capturing two tapes with the same TC and same reel name? Then re-naming one? low priority for me as i rarely (if ever) capture from a tape... like once in the last five years and when an assist did it, it was only once.... they learned from "Dermot's school of Hard Knocks"
  14. The ability to change Reel name and timecode of a captured clip or file with no unlinking of media. The result will translate to all timelines with a Yes/No operation dialog. Previously rendered clips will show as unrendered.
[d] same as above.. in my workflow i can think of alot of things that i would like to see done before dealing with this
  15. Unleash the full potential of the AJA card in V10! Allow it to be used as a standalone I/O standards converter. Please see this workaround as a temporary expedient.
[d] YES....  although there is some workarounds by using Machina currently, but a really ugly workflow
  16. Embrace any new file format BEFORE FCP does.
[d] i don't give a red rats ass what fcpooo does, either do my clients... they care what Smoke, Luster, Scratch, Iridas, Baselight do tho.... and so do i....

Color Correction

   1. BIG BALLS (A user interface for color correction); Tangent Panel support (or any panel with rings and big balls) Seriously if Avid was to do this, they would have to rebuild the entire engine so the screen smoothly reacts to the panel control. The way DS is working now, panels would be useless. If everything worked DS would be taken far more seriously by many more colorists
[d] YES!!!!!!!! 
   2. Dark & neutral User Interface (to help with Color Correction), Advanced options in CC like colour warpers etc
[d] YES!!!!!!!! 
   3. Layers & effects inside the Color Correction module, masks including invert within color mode so you don't need to work in graphics to build a window or multiple windows
[d] YES!!!!!!!! 
   4. Additional tools for grading ( e.g. masks inside CC for main / secondary .. not only just before ...)
[d] YES!!!!!!!! 
   5. Proper handling of RED files with a color correction effect or an easier LUT workflow. LUT's are not a workaround. We need better support for them.
[d] 10.3 answers this
   6. Adding video scopes (Waveform, Vectorscope, Histogram).
[d] YES!!!!!!!! 
   7. OpenEXR - Full Float or Half Float? - Most certainly half, but asking anyway - will need new grading tools.
[d] yes.. workaround possiable, but yea.... i would rather have everything in BIG "yes's" first
   8. Thumbnails for grade presets. (Preferebly user defined sizes - so we can use them for comparison sources)
[d] YES!!!!!!!! 


3D
   1. A workable, flexible 3D space with 3D trackers
[d] YES!!!!!!!!   A Ui that matches the rest of DS, and either native trackers -or- import PF/Bijou camera data
   2. Blurs and optical glows working in X, Y and Z as you pan around in a 3d environment
[d] YES!!!!!!!! 
   3. Support for Wondertouch Particles
[d] YES!!!!!!!!  Don't care who's particle system is in there, as long as the emitters can be attached to 3D trackers


Graphics
[d] Hardly ever use GFX in my workflow.... other than rotoing... so not a huge deal to me for the most part, a few comments tho;
   1. Expressions within Graphics, the same as the rest of DS.
   2. More realtime effects within Graphics, including CC.
   3. Text capitalization tools in graphics effect text tool (Capitalization as a formatting option is rarely retained when copied and pasted from Microsoft Word)
   4. Motion Blur in Graphics / Paint
   5. Some pre-built text animation similar to Apple's Motion.
   6. Object edge feathering controls (eg.: have one edge hard, but another blurring inwards; while onother section could blur outwards slightly).
[d] yes.. great for roto
   7. The ability to add a drop shadow or edge to a stroke

Timeline

   1. Resolution/FrameRate-independent timeline in REAL TIME.
[d] YES!!!!!!!! 
   2. 8 tracks of guaranteed realtime effects (CC + DVE) for HD DNX projects via SDI output. (NB: This functionality was demonstrated on SD projects when DS Nitris was first released.)
[d] have you seen DS 10.3 on a z800 in GL mode?
   3. Total (complete) conform from MC & Symphony - now that MC has 3D tools, we need the same 3D modes and the ability to conform those in the same way, we also need to be able to conform different frame rates
[d] yes- not as big a deal
   4. The ability to drop sequences and clips of different framerates onto a timeline to play back in realtime.
[d] duplicate of #1? or i'm not getting this note?
   5. Modify MULTIPLE clips simultaneously.
[d] Yes...
   6. UOV - Universal Object View. A unique 'overview' of the Timeline where all objects, effects, graphics etc are all visible and drag-about-able
[d] Yes.... kinda like Jaleo.... 
   7. Duplicate clips indicator in the timeline.
[d] You still cut neg?  wow... that's so last mellienium... not something i would be worried about...

Tracking

   1. Fluid Stabilization similar to MC's tool.
[d] BCC6's optical stabliser plug-in answers this
   2. Better Tracker (better than Smoke)
 [d] see below
   3. Embed Mocha inside DS
[d] rather a 3D tracker AND/or the ablity to import camera data from PFTrack & Bijou, not a big deal to me if i have to go outside the app, long term - sure, for setting prioroties, i want tools, and am not as fussed about inside DS's UI or outside it in the short term

Miscellaneous

   1. Improved Stereoscopic support.
[d] YES!!!!!!!! 
   2. Faster response to loading sequences.
[d] DS 10.3 on a z800, but it will never be fast enough.... so depends on where the proirities lay... i can live with 10.3
   3. Faster response while confirming.
[d] ditto
   4. Ability to truly share projects, by having the same project (but not sequence) open on 2 DS systems at the same time
[d] the workflow seems to be fine to me, not the same a MC, but workable just the same
   5. Decompose, or some similar ability that would enable improved functionality of Masterclip based effects
[d] Yes...
   6. Give all effects the ability to work in at least 16bit. No more 8-bit only effects (even though there are only a few)! Obviously this doesn't apply to legacy effects such as the old 'Classic' CC.
[d] what's still 8 bit in 10.3?
   7. Make "Recapture with Options" become "Recapture with + options" not only "Recapture with - options"...
   8. Have the number pad "." (period) for double-zeros be able to be used more than once per entry (1:00:00:00 would be 1... instead of 10000. as it is now)
   9. Modify Clip that is MC-like 'modify' capability so you don't have to re-log from scratch in order to add an audio track.
  10. Modify Clip for a selection of Master Clips (for instance, add Audio to a whole bunch of logged clips)
  11. Clip color Selector/Filter
  12. More "cool" effect presets to ameliorate the costs of third-party plugins, Text Presets and 3D presets.
  13. After effects plugin.
  14. An ATTIC-like crash/screwup recovery system. (Please note, DS retains its "Auto Save Files" that may be used for this if you have an issue currently.)
[d] keep the autosave files rather than toasting them when DS re-starts would address this
  15. Thumbnails in the Tree.
[d] yes.. but i didn't often use them in Combustion, so a small "yes"....
  16. A method of altering timings within a tree more elegantly than with Keyframes
[d] yes.. but i'm OK with things as they are, so another small "yes"....
  17. Print Bin.
[d] YES! i use bins for tracking VFX shots
  18. Conform of Illusion FX from MC
[d] YES!
  19. Aggressive training initiatives to expand the user base.
[d] YES!!!!!!!! Targeting FCP abusers who are fed up with flakey media managment, stepping in & out of software, render everything, etc etc...

 The colour grading tool needs to be revamped to consolidate and nitris inject (har har) all the tools required by a modern DS colourist.

When I colour grade HD in DS, I often have to jump between the effects
tree, effects mode and graphics mode just to colour grade a single clip.

The tools are mostly in there  but it's messy and slow. To make a basic vignette, for instance, you have to jump out of colour grading and go into graphics mode to make a shape with a colour correction fill. Why can't there just be a basic vignette masking tool directly in the colour corrector?

This great magic bullet tute shows techniques that are fairly standard in grading dramatic shows.

http://library.creativecow.net/articles/maschwitz_stu/red-giant-
blockbuster-film-look/video-tutorial.php

What would be incredibly useful for DS is RT vignetting, RT power window mask on each colour effect with tracking option, RT optical glow diffusion/blur , clip based transfer mode effects (for use on
timeline), RT masking on sec colour corrector and most of all
realtime interactive update of curves!
 
Cheers
 
Adam
NZ

Adam Sondej:

 The colour grading tool needs to be revamped to consolidate and nitris inject (har har) all the tools required by a modern DS colourist.

When I colour grade HD in DS, I often have to jump between the effects
tree, effects mode and graphics mode just to colour grade a single clip.

<snip>

What would be incredibly useful for DS is RT vignetting, RT power window mask on each colour effect with tracking option, RT optical glow diffusion/blur , clip based transfer mode effects (for use on
timeline), RT masking on sec colour corrector and most of all
realtime interactive update of curves!
 
Cheers
 
Adam
NZ

I completly agree, and would add;

1) a darker UI

2) software scopes

3) automatch being able to be kept inside ranges, ie; highlights/mids/shadows.

4) add a second video source for when i injest r3d files in two passes, (highlight & shadow)

5) HDR/EXR support

d.

d.

Ok , the list is verry nice. When do we get all of this???

it looks like Avid spends more on marketing than in R&D http://www.avid.com/us/pressroom/fourth-quarter-2009-results.aspx

dermot:

1) a darker UI

I'd say that this, along with the vignetting, window masking etc AND an interface to the Tangent control panel (or similar) should probably be top of the list.

If you've got a DI box (I know DS is so much more than that, but it's one of it's core strengths) then you'll be working with a lot of raw footage. In fact, DS is one of the best NLEs out there for working with Red. If you work with raw then you need to grade it.  Again and again I see folks print a list of grading solutions and they never, ever put DS on that list.  It's simply not seen by outsiders as a serious grading tool - but it could be.

If Avid have to start somewhere with getting the world to know, understand and appreciate DS then why not start by blowing everyone away with what a great grading tool it is?  Once they see that, they'll start to see all of the other things that can be accomplished with DS.

Hmmm.... sounds almost like MARKETING the product, doesn't it?

Tony

slicker:

it looks like Avid spends more on marketing than in R&D http://www.avid.com/us/pressroom/fourth-quarter-2009-results.aspx

So the operating losses were less than half the Marketing budget...

Hmm....

I have a solution!   Me sir, me, me...

a few more thoughts after spending a looong saturday gradeing red footage...

two smaller mons, with a layout that has software scopes on the right, and the tools & timeline on the left, leaving a center view clear of any ui stuff, just my eyes, a control surface and the screen is a worthy goal

i can't see any way to work effectivly with the 30" when gradeing even when i have mine turned down as low as it can go, it's still too much, too big, too bright.... add a 19" for scopes and the culmitive effect is best discribed as light polution blasting into your face, and activly getting inbetween the DS artist and the screen...

That said i lurrrrrve my 30" every other moment of the day, i do allot of masks when i'm gradeing, and the 30" is awesome for that, but i would (and have in the past) trade off that for control of the viewing enviroment when doing color work

goggle "color gradeing suite" and select "images" to find example after example... and all similar for a good reason.. that suite layout works, but not with a 30" lcd in yer face ;-)

d.

BIG DISCLAIMER IN CAPITAL LETTERS: I WORK FOR ASSIMILATE, MAKERS OF SCRATCH.

tonyjover:

If you've got a DI box (I know DS is so much more than that, but it's one of it's core strengths) ...

Why is DS a good DI box? In the space of datacentric workflow, what sets it apart from systems such as Baselight, FilmMaster, Pablo, SCRATCH, or Resolve?

tonyjover:

In fact, DS is one of the best NLEs out there for working with Red.

Why? What sets it apart from Media Composer, FCP, or Vegas in terms of NLEs that deal with R3D material?

tonyjover:

Again and again I see folks print a list of grading solutions and they never, ever put DS on that list.  It's simply not seen by outsiders as a serious grading tool - but it could be.

In the world of what are traditionally considered "grading solutions," DS lacks key elements:

1) Realtime, multi-layer primaries, secondaries, blurs, and tracking mattes

2) Panel support

3) Realtime mixing of color spaces and 1D/3D LUT chains encompassing different source and delivery spaces, and the ability to switch those chains quicky.

4) Multi-format, realtime pan/scan/resize/output.

DS runs circles around competitors in many areas. I see edges and halos on mattes and bow to McNeill and Mathur - the Ur-Gods of Premultiiplication. I watch visual effects artists work and think, "gee... a Container is what you really need there." But grading is not DS's strength. If it was, there wouldn't be so many requests in the Wishlist relating to those features.

Re: Marketing, why focus on grading when there are areas where DS does well and can take all comers... so why this? The grading market is saturated with high-end tools busily beating each others brains out over an increasingly small market share. If you want to compete with FilmMaster, Lustre, Baselight, Pablo, Resolve, and Revolution, have at it. And be ready to explain why REDCINE-X and Color (both FREE applications) support a Tangent panel and DS doesn't.

Spending a ton of dollars on a really small, resource-intensive market that does not encompass your strengths seems like an uphill climb.

Best,

Lucas Wilson

Hiya Lucas!  :::waves:::

luki:

Why is DS a good DI box? In the space of datacentric workflow, what sets it apart from systems such as Baselight, FilmMaster, Pablo, SCRATCH, or Resolve?

I never said it was 'apart from' or 'better than' any of the above solutions.  I said that DI was one of DS's core strengths.  Don't be so defensive.

luki:

What sets it apart from Media Composer, FCP, or Vegas in terms of NLEs that deal with R3D material?

Direct import of the source files using no 3rd party applications via the latest Red SDK and Red Rocket accelleration.  The ability to instantly change your mind about the import options (LUT, Look file etc) for any clip at any time throughout the process.

luki:

In the world of what are traditionally considered "grading solutions," DS lacks key elements:

1) Realtime, multi-layer primaries, secondaries, blurs, and tracking mattes

2) Panel support

3) Realtime mixing of color spaces and 1D/3D LUT chains encompassing different source and delivery spaces, and the ability to switch those chains quicky.

4) Multi-format, realtime pan/scan/resize/output.

Re-read the first line of my message - the one bit that you didn't quote. 

luki:

DS runs circles around competitors in many areas.

Yes - and if only the higher-ups within Avid realised that then maybe they could market it suitably.

luki:

Re: Marketing, why focus on grading when there are areas where DS does well and can take all comers... so why this?

Because, I'm sat here frustrated with Avid's lack of imagination and trying to latch on to ANYTHING they might understand to enable them to market the box.

luki:

And be ready to explain why REDCINE-X and Color (both FREE applications) support a Tangent panel and DS doesn't.

I'd LOVE someone at Avid to explain that one to me.  And equally importantly why they can't recolor the UI bitmaps - it's only been asked for over the last, what 6 years or more?

Good to see you again,
Tone :)

luki:

Re: Marketing, why focus on grading when there are areas where DS does well and can take all comers... so why this?

Best,

Lucas Wilson

Digital Jedi Wilson asks a wise question....

My answer is workflow - an elegant and flexiable workflow....

But if you want to let me bring in a DS timeline and link to my GEN files, and then export a DS timeline back with CC in place - i'm all ears!!!

But until someone does that, haveing intergrated and powerful flexiable color tools in DS is the answer... we already have the tools as you well know young jedi, but what's lacking is the controls to use these tools effectvily.. i grade feature films & they win awards, obviously the DS can do the job... but it ain't easy, and it ain't pretty, and it needs to be.... back around to where we started... workflow, intergration of tools = flexiability

d.

>>Why is DS a good DI box? In the space of datacentric workflow, what sets it apart from systems such as Baselight, FilmMaster, Pablo, SCRATCH, or Resolve?

It is not limited to just Colour Grading like those other expensive systems are.

Its entire NLE and  Effect Toolset is instantly accessible during the grade.

This is very useful now that "Lock off for grade" is a thing of the past.

Adam Sondej:

 

>>Why is DS a good DI box? In the space of datacentric workflow, what sets it apart from systems such as Baselight, FilmMaster, Pablo, SCRATCH, or Resolve?

It is not limited to just Colour Grading like those other expensive systems are.

Its entire NLE and  Effect Toolset is instantly accessible during the grade.

This is very useful now that "Lock off for grade" is a thing of the past.

I wisk Avid would extoll the virtues of DS more.

Jayanta:

I wisk Avid would extoll the virtues of DS more.

 

Amen to that, my friend.