dbeditorial:

I never asked what model hammer he used.

Yeah but I bet your last producer would have.....just before insisting on him buying the cheapest imported nails and cheap, wet, uncured timber. Probably would have saved themselves enough for a few more trim milk Lattes.

Andrew, you bugger...I just spat the remainder of my trim milk latte over the keyboard.....

But the underlying problem still remains.

Often what appears to have happened is:  a production company thinks it can save money by buying FCP and doing their demos and pitches in-house.  Because, as we all know, once you have the software you're an editor.

Then a major project gets up.  They know that for something this important they need a real editor, but they have their own, in-house, edit system.  So they advertise for an FCP editor.

A worse scenario is where the director has his/her own FCP system, and spends each night not preparing for the next day's shoot, but doing their own cut of the previous day's rushes.  I've worked with one of these.  He would have very much preferred an FCP-based editor.  He will probably never work with me again because I refused an editor's credit at the end of the process.

The problem really is that FCP is a useful tool at a very low cost.  The low cost is gained by mass marketting to anybody who might or might not need an editor.  Couple that to the fact that a significant number of "professionals" (yes, you latte drinkers, I mean you) in our industry regard editors as little more than button pushers and you have the makings of a really toxic situation.

oh dude - a director that was messing with yesterday's dailies in final cut?  are you kidding me?  wasn't he supposed to be checking the next day's shot list and getting sleep?  what an idiot. 

so that probably means you were demoted to a button pusher and his project suffered because it was done by him alone.

gotta love that. 

 

sean90291:

At least not in Toronto.

I do keep reading about how Avid is still the rock under most pro-level productions for broadcast and theatrical release. But the jobs I see advertised over and over and over are FCP. I have only seen one that asked for familiary with Avid within the last 3 or 4 months here in Toronto. (I applied and didn't hear a word, despite some solid credits to my name.) Curious if others have found this to be true in their home towns. Avid has some catching up to do, it would seem...at least in Toronto.

This is the natural flow-on of Avid making exactly the same mistake as countless company's, across myriad markets, who have presumed that a product 'name' will automatically guarantee success without effort. Avid have rested on their hard-fought for laurels and are now paying the price which may seem them become a niche product.

The National broadcasting Newtwork I work for recently dropped Avid altogether in both the Production and Newscaff areas (where we had hitherto been Avid-exclusive for six or seven years). For Avid to lose an account of such size is testament to the arrogant corporate attitude of Avid.

The hard and sad truth is that Avid cornered the market and then blew it due to arrogance and blind refusal to be competitive. Avid is merely reaping what it has sown.

cheers.

 

Then a major project gets up.  They know that for something this important they need a real editor, but they have their own, in-house, edit system.  So they advertise for an FCP editor.

 

.-Decent (and up) post houses and TV channels rarely REALLY advertise for an editor, whether is an FCP, Avid, Media100, Super 8 or a Quantel editor .

Sometimes they put up an Ad for legal reasons (Equal oportunity law, etc) but most of the times they already have several candidates, usually via colleague recomendations, word-of-mouth, etc.

Most (if not all) of the post houses I know usuallly have several freelancers at hand.

Not one, several.

In extreme cases, they ask some other fellow Post house for a recommendation.

In any case, they just use the phone.

I've never (and is literally NEVER, as in 0 times) gotten any job through any Ad in my entire professional life.

I don't know a single editor (and I know many, including exotic Smoke, Lightworks and Quantel artists) that ever had found a job through an Ad.

I don't even own a Post house and I already know several editors and Graphic artists I can recommend or even hire!!!

Not only editors, I know DPs, directors, producers, gaffers, grips, etc.

At least that's the situation here in South Florida.

In this small pro video world, we all know each other.

 

raspago:

Then a major project gets up.  They know that for something this important they need a real editor, but they have their own, in-house, edit system.  So they advertise for an FCP editor.

 

.-Decent (and up) post houses and TV channels rarely REALLY advertise for an editor, whether is an FCP, Avid, Media100, Super 8 or a Quantel editor .

 ...That's because you live and work in the United States. In the US there is still a post house market in post production. In Canada, where the initiator of this thread lives and works, and I too, operate in a post production market where the post house has practicly been obliterated by low cost, affordable editing solutions run by 19 year olds walking around from board room to boardroom with a laptop under their arm. (This only reads like an exaggeration).

raspago:

Most (if not all) of the post houses I know usuallly have several freelancers at hand.

Not one, several.

....In Montreal & Toronto the editors are almost exclusively freelancers.

raspago:

In this small pro video world, we all know each other.

....In Montreal, you only get to know editors who work for Tv Networks. These are the only editors who are knowable. The rest are in house employees mostly and freelancers. They are a persistent, faceless group of nomads. We are a tiny indie-post house, and we are an anachronism in our market.

 

 

jwrl:

Often what appears to have happened is:  a production company thinks it can save money by buying FCP and doing their demos and pitches in-house.  Because, as we all know, once you have the software you're an editor.

 

jwrl:

A worse scenario is where the director has his/her own FCP system, and spends each night not preparing for the next day's shoot, but doing their own cut of the previous day's rushes.  I've worked with one of these.  He would have very much preferred an FCP-based editor.  He will probably never work with me again because I refused an editor's credit at the end of the process.

.....Welcome to my world ! BTW, it's not just with FCP, but just as often with CS2 and CS3 Adobe packages.

jwrl:

The problem really is that FCP is a useful tool at a very low cost.  The low cost is gained by mass marketting to anybody who might or might not need an editor.  Couple that to the fact that a significant number of "professionals" (yes, you latte drinkers, I mean you) in our industry regard editors as little more than button pushers and you have the makings of a really toxic situation.

....Yes, I live and work in exactly such a toxic situation.

 

 

It truly is amazing to follow threads like this and read postings from editors who work in post houses. You guys are so spoiled and very fortunate to work inside a market whereby your employment is based on doing good work for clients who are committed to, and understand the value of editing which comes from the quality afforded by a specialized post house. You guys are editors by reputation (You're on the list as one editor wrote). In our market it almost doesn't matter anymore, because there is no list to get on. Editors are regarded as providers of a service for the most affordable price - Not as creative artists. If there is a $100.00 difference in your bid, then they're gone. Your post house niche is slowly disappearing and you don't even realise it ! Slowly, progressively, TV networks are dropping Avid and the more traditional approaches to hiring professional editors along with it. I think the post house will still survive in major centers like LA & London because those markets are still dominated by a strong studio system of sorts. As for everywhere else in the world, your freakin history ! I watched with horror as Montreal's post houses faded away in the late 1990's, just as soon as you could get editing systems which did the job and didn't cost $100,000.00 US. Now the post industry is going through another transformation - The rise of the independent producer-editor and director editor and editor as inhouse employee. I'm not claiming this is a good thing or a bad thing - just that it's reality. I frequently receive jobs which have already been rough cut by the producer or director. Man ! This never ever used to happen ! I'm just pondering while rendering out a long Boris denoise effect.

Blofelds Cat:

For Avid to lose an account of such size is testament to the arrogant corporate attitude of Avid.

 ......I think this company's arrogance is best expressed in their market pricing for their proprietary hardware interfaces, such as the Avid MOJO DX. Avid's Nitris DX pricing seems reasonable for the level of product one seems to be getting, but this company's view of lower end does not seem to be in-sync with the market which will want to use it. Perhaps Avid will re-think their pricing on this particular unit. As far as I can tell from Avid's marketing and testimonials on their main website, everyone who's using their products are high end post houses and Hollywood (A.C.E. Guild) editors. You don't see the average independent, or digi-underground young folks giving any testimonials. Why ? Do they think they're invisible ?

.....I mean, Media Composer is a kick ass product (Especially with the release of version 3.0.0) - It's really a wonderful stand and deliver - mission critical editing application. I can see why so many Hollywood editors and post houses and TV networks swear by it and not at it. However, not too many of us work in commercial operation at this market level.

Blofelds Cat:

Avid has some catching up to do, it would seem...at least in Toronto.

....Montreal too. I'm hearing of some dramatic improvements in the so called lower end editing apps I've used a couple of years back and really considered weren't ready for prime time, such as Premiere Pro, from a local Avid editor whose opinions I greatly respect. I haven't tried FCP yet, but the pressure to at least try it out is mounting. I am figuring I need to broaden my skills as an editor by being fluent in all three of the main apps and right now I'm good in two of them.

....To be fair to Avid, I suspect part of FCP's success is due to its association with Apple Computers, and the mass market sales success of the Mac Book Pro & MAC PRO. I understand FCP does not run on a PC, while Avid runs on both

....Uggghhhhh ! It is 4:48 AM and my render is not quite finished yet !

These threads is always interesting. It show the different worlds we live in. I got some thougths.

First, the editors a buttom pushers. As I have been told, by people who lived in the broadcast world since the begining, this has been the fact for most of the time. The producer make some offline editis on VHS. Then, they goes to the editing suite and tell the engineer how to make the online edit.

Second, most jobs, in every industry, is recuite by friends and contacts. Mostly You first jobs is from adds, or unqualify jobs there the employees are interchangable (such as FCP-editors?).

Third, we are working in lots of different circumstances. The reality for an editor at large posthouses or broadcasters is different from an editor who make the living from the industrial videos for web or dvd to middle size business. It is the later part of the market which growths most, and Avid has nerver been strong there as they have been at the broadcast market. In this market, the customers want to buy a full solution and You have to deliver that. (Which most of the jack of all trade 19ers with laptop instincly understand). The problem is that the buyers does not understand the different between good and bad results.They know it then they can compare, but the quality producers/video professional have to educate them.

I use to compare the video industry with the printing industry in the 1980s. Lots of "kids" bough Pagemaker and become adagencies and prepress houses. We got a lots of horrified prints, but after some years, the market deliver quality, except for the most budget mind people who do it by theirselfe with MS-Word. The buyers learn to recognice the different between bad and good print design.

I think the demand for video will growth, but the price the buyers will pay will not growth. There are two ways to cope with these problems. Lower the wages or increase productivity. This industry has increased productivity with lower cost camcorders and lower cost NLEs. But lowcost equipment is not the solution, quality is part of the game. A carpenter do not use hammers for €2, they bougth €20s hammers, because it will make them doing their job more efficiency.

Just like our convertion form Premiere  Pro 1.0 to Avid Xpress 4.5. What we lost in some effects and fancy things, which we still could do in After Effects, we gain in shorter editing time because of the more relability and the small untold things Avid increase efficiency (not to talk about the boos MC 3 have give us). And I belive our 10 year old Sony DSR-300 will deliver better quality pictures than todays small HD camcorders because of better lenses, no lages cut in lens prices during the last 10 years, and better ergonomics. This even if some of the never camcorders can deliver better pictures of a testpicture on a unmovable tripod. And ofcourse, today our DSR is payed over and over again so we can compete with prices to

Hi,

Laptopeditor:

As far as I can tell from Avid's marketing and testimonials on their main website, everyone who's using their products are high end post houses and Hollywood (A.C.E. Guild) editors. You don't see the average independent, or digi-underground young folks giving any testimonials. Why ? Do they think they're invisible ?

 

There's another way to look at this.  If you were selling an editing system and you wanted people to think it was worth the money, what examples of work done on that editing system would you tell people about?  Would you tell them about movies that were edited by respected members of the editing community and made tens or hundreds of millions of dollars, or would you tell them about movies that were edited by some kid who graduated from film school last week and shown to an audience consisting of the immediate family of the crew?

This is not to say that there is no room at all for Avid marketing to incorporate some indie film success stories into their advertising, just that the reason they aren't doing so now may not be because Avid doesn't care about that market.

good luck,
Carl

And to support Carl,

this is the reason Apple made lots of niose about Murchs experiment with FCP some years ago.

Adobe use one San Fransico based production company with several high end customers then they released CS4 Production, this is the way they will show the usefullness of their products.

That's because you live and work in the United States. In the US there is still a post house market in post production.

 

>-Well, the way I describe it isexactly the way it is in South America and Spain, two markets I know very, very well.

 

In Montreal & Toronto the editors are almost exclusively freelancers

.- So is here in the US. And South America and Spain too.

Every single editor I know is, was or will eventually be a Freelancer, even staff and TV station editors.

I'm a total freelancer myself.

Sometimes long term freelancing (contracts).

But still a freelancer.

They are a persistent, faceless group of nomads.

 

.-A freelancer is not necessarily a nomad.

I work usually for the same people I've been working for a long time.

They recommend me to other people, so I'm increasing my freelancing work.

I also work at home in my personal suite.

 

I don't go from town to town in a Motorhome looking for work.

And I don't read the Ads.

I call my contacts and/or they call me.

Second, most jobs, in every industry, is recuite by friends and contacts. Mostly You first jobs is from adds, or unqualify jobs there the employees are interchangable (such as FCP-editors?).

 

.- Undisputable truth, berga.

As we can see, it seems to be the same case in Sweden.