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  • Fri, Feb 1 2008 8:31 PM

    • daktulus
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    I need AVC-Intra. You will need it too, very soon. Please support.

    AVC-Intra is the format of the new Panasonic flagship: the HPX3000 camera, and will be the standard high definition format pretty soon.

    AVC-Intra has the same data rate as DVCPROHD, but with doubled information, therefore has an even better quality than HDCAM.
    AVC-Intra is definatly not a fringe format.

    The camera costs less than Sonys HDW900 HDCAM camera and will soon be the most used high end camera.

    If you want to be able to work on this level, please support this thread now.

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  • Fri, Feb 1 2008 10:06 PM In reply to

    Re: I need AVC-Intra. You will need it too, very soon. Please support.

    Although I agree that the format should be supported I think you are overstating its potential adoption.

    AVC has several things going against it -

    1. Many have already invested in the current formats (HDV, HDCAM, DVC Pro, etc). There are little clues that many will be spending more money to switch formats with little to gain.
    2. It is much more resource intensive to process.
    3. The HPX3000 is a P2 cam - which has been not as popular as many have thought (long form file based formats is just too damn messy).
    4. Sony is fighting back with XDCAM HD, Blu-Ray and SxS Pro

    So its widespread adoption is definitely questionable at best. Of course Avid should nevertheless support it to be ahead of the game.

    .02
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  • Sat, Feb 2 2008 2:32 AM In reply to

    • daktulus
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    Re: I need AVC-Intra. You will need it too, very soon. Please support.

    no, it´s way better than you think:

    AVC-Intra has the same videodata rate as DVCPROHD: 100 Mbps, 4:2:2, 10 bit, but has double the image quality.
    (HDCAM is only 3:1:1 and not accepted by some tv-stations because of that, at least in Europe)
    The AVC-Intra compression method is just more effective. So I guess when you use DVCPROHD on your system without problems, you can use AVC-Intra as well.

    AVC-Intra with half datarate has only 50Mbps and uses half as much space with the same quality as DVCPROHD.

    XDCAM HD doesn´t have the AVC-Intra quality and is more expensive, Blu-Ray has nothing to do with camera recording formats and SxS Pro is no format either, it´s a card to record on.

    P2 is not messy, it is a dream to work and edit with. Try it.

    Believe me: AVC-Intra is THE upcoming format.

    Usually people don´t buy cameras, they rent. And since the rental places invested in HPX3000 cameras (they are cheaper and have the same quality as HDCAM) you will have a LOT of AVC-Intra coming your way in the near future.


    Since we know how long it takes to integrate a format, we should start telling Avid now.
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  • Sun, Feb 3 2008 8:12 PM In reply to

    Re: I need AVC-Intra. You will need it too, very soon. Please support.

    I am not arguing about quality. The point is hundreds of facilities and stations around the world have already invested in HDCAM, DVC Pro HD and HDV (cameras, decks, converters, etc). There is no compelling reason to spend more money on equipment for increased quality when their current equipment is 'good enough'.

    P2 is a mess. And I have worked with it, especially for long form (docs, reality, news magazine, etc).
    There is no proven archive medium other than the added cost of more storage space. It is not friendly for the offline/online workflow since there no playback decks with the same features as a 1200 or 1400 deck - so even the simplest DVD dub is a pain and tedious. Without a physical backup you may also not get production insurance like you can if you where shooting a tape format.

    I work in NYC and even the Red camera gets more attention than any AVC camera around here. So I disagree with your assestment until I see otherwise. We service every facet at every budget of TV production here in NYC and I can probably count in one hand the amount of people that have inquired about AVC in the last 6 months.

    Just to be clear, Avid should support it soon, but if it is THE format of the future - there are no clear indications in my opinion.
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  • Sun, Feb 3 2008 8:29 PM In reply to

    Re: I need AVC-Intra. You will need it too, very soon. Please support.

    daktulus:
    (HDCAM is only 3:1:1 and not accepted by some tv-stations because of that, at least in Europe)


    That's interesting because I recently attended a BBC seminar which discussed the BBC's involvement with HD and formats. They will only accept material submitted to them on HDCAM format regardless what the original HD material was. So even if folk shoot DVCPROHD or D5 at 4:2:2 sampling, the BBC will only accept material which eventually ends up stored on HDCAM at 3:1:1.

    I spoke at length with a technical guy afterwards and we waxed lyrical about why DVCPROHD wasn't so popular and why HDCAM-SR wasn't an option etc... Mention was even made for XDCAM EX.

    But during the seminar, mention was certainly made of AVC-Intra as a format to watch out for.

    Just thought I'd let folk know that the good 'ol BBC even mentioned this particular format. Wink
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  • Mon, Feb 4 2008 9:32 PM In reply to

    • daktulus
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    Re: I need AVC-Intra. You will need it too, very soon. Please support.

    Hi malefunction,
    good to hear the BBC is interested for obvious reasons.

    Hi Dom,
    what is so messy about putting the P2 material on HDDs?
    It is much cheaper to buy a 500GB HDD for 500min. than 15 HDCAM tapes.
    Even if you buy 2 for backup it is cheaper and you never have to digitize again.
    Dubs can be made from the timeline.

    As of now, there are not so many HPX3000s out, because this camera is brandnew.

    But when you compare the format, it will come, because it is superior (better quality, cheaper)

    Avid always needs some (LOL) time to integrate new formats, so this is the best time to ask for it, I guess.


    BTW: what´s the best site to find the latest news on testing the RED?





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  • Mon, Feb 4 2008 10:06 PM In reply to

    Re: I need AVC-Intra. You will need it too, very soon. Please support.

    P2 is great is for short form since the media management is relatively simple. Shoot, transfer media in to NLE, edit and output. This is great. However, once you involve long form projects, especially multi episodic shows P2 is a complete mess. Reality shows, documentaries, new magazines, etc is far from the ideal shows for P2.

    1. P2 media - time consuming conversion to other codecs for offline editing.
    2. P2 metadata - not bulletproof to make sure metadata info is preserved when moving the media around. If the directory structure of the P2 folders are not maintained throughout, you can lose meta and sometimes even connection to the raw media stream (like multi file clips being disconnected)
    3. Archiving - in order to shoot you need a laptop on the field with multiple FW drives. You shoot, transfer to FW drives, make a backup of FW drives while you ship first drive to post facility, wait for OK to delete backup, while you keep shooting, rinse and repeat. Kind of cumbersome and adds more work not meant for your DP (of course you can always add the extra cost to the assistant DP or PA).
    4. Arching Part II - since you will convert the media to offline res, you will need to backup your large full res  DVC Pro HD and DVC Pro50 files. Cheapest is firewire drives. So on top of your network or local storage you will need to budget several drives. Ideally you don't want super large drives because if one fails you can end up losing dozens and dozens of hours of footage - FOREVER.
    5. Onlining - You can't just import the media needed (aka Consolidated portion). You need to bring in the entire clip.

    Now multiply these 12 times for a typical one season. A typical doc or reality have at least 100 hours of footage per episode (200+ is not uncommon). That is at least 1 TB of long term archiving, 80GB x 2 for short term archiving/transfer (shoot and transfer), time to convert files to offline res, etc. etc.

    Now you get the idea.

    I have not even delved in to the problem of say converting P2 media. Have you tried converting P2 720/24p to something else you can offline with while preserving meta (hint: near impossible)?

    How about standard-def dub with TC burn in from P2 HD footage? There are no decks.
    Workaround is use NLE workstation time. That is least efficient way of using thousands of dollars of equipment.

    But when you compare the format, it will come, because it is superior (better quality, cheaper)


    Nothing is cheaper than free. Meaning, if I don't have to buy AVC equipment since I already have HD gear what is 'cheaper' is moot.

    Red's own site and forum are good.
    http://www.reduser.net/forum/index.php

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  • Mon, Feb 4 2008 11:49 PM In reply to

    • daktulus
    • Top 150 Contributor
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    Re: I need AVC-Intra. You will need it too, very soon. Please support.

    Sounds like a complicated workflow.
    Why did you have to transform/convert?
    The great thing about P2 is: no transformation and only one quick transfer to 2 HDDs for archive.
    Why offlining? That makes it time-consuming.

    Some things have to be resolved though:
    Even if you don´t transform, Avid should be able to read ALL the metadata.
    This has to be developed by Panasonic and Avid.
    It should at least be possible to read the whole MetaData from within Avid.
    We should ask for it!


    I don´t advertise switching gear, I just think it is a good idea to be able to edit a coming format. Not a fringe format, one of THE big future formats.

    Thanks for the Red info.



    Oh, and I just read this:

    100 P2HD-Camcorder AJ-HPX2100 und AJ-HPX3000 for Olympic games in China.
    HPX2100 and 3000 are DVCPROHD and AVC-I cameras.






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  • Tue, Feb 5 2008 12:14 AM In reply to

    Re: I need AVC-Intra. You will need it too, very soon. Please support.

    You have to offline for many, if not most, long form projects.

    For say 6 episodes (half season) for a hour long show.

    Conservatively, let us say 100 hours of footage per episode.

    For 3 editors

    100 hours of  DVC Pro HD is 5 TB.
    That is 30 TB of storage just for raw media for 6 episodes. You need a little more for music, graphics and renders (say 50GB for each editor). Even the cheapest SAN for 30 TB is in the tens of thousands of dollars.


    Early on many NLEs, including Avid, had issues reading P2 media that spanned more than one clip.

    There are also issues of RT and FX. It is faster to render offline res like DV25 than compressed HD formats like HDV and DVC Pro HD.

    For short form P2 is at its strongest. For long form, its advantages tends to diminish when you consider the disadvantages.

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  • Tue, Feb 5 2008 10:29 PM In reply to

    • daktulus
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    Re: I need AVC-Intra. You will need it too, very soon. Please support.

    100 hours per episode? That sounds insane. May I ask what kind of show you have 100 hours for 1 hour show?

    So what was the workflow? You transfered from P2 to HDD. Then MXF to DV25. How (which software)?

    If you film long form in the studio, you could record DVCPROHD directly to HDD.

    If you record to tape, what makes it so much easier? OK, you don´t need to import a whole clip if you only need part of it, but on the other hand you don´t have to digitize realtime, you can transfer at least double realtime speeds.


    As far as I know the problem with media spanning 2 clips is resolved, isn´t it? Have you had any problems with it lately?


    As for RT and FX I found DVCPROHD much easier to handle and work with than HDV.
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  • Wed, Feb 6 2008 12:38 AM In reply to

    Re: I need AVC-Intra. You will need it too, very soon. Please support.

    100 is actually not insane. It is typical for reality shows, documentaries and verite type programming. Many are much more. I can't remember a show we have done that is LESS than 100:1 ratio except for scripted fiction programming.

     200 or more is not uncommon either. Your typical primetime PBS shows like Nova, Frontline, American Experience, etc have very high shooting ratios. A typical interview is 3-4 hours of footage (full day interview), say 12 subjects, that is 36 hours for interviews alone. Archival material can range in tens or hundreds of hours depending on the subject. Plus B-Roll, stills, music and graphics. etc.

    A competitive reality show with 3-4 multicam shoots about 4+ hours per camera 7 days a week ((4x7)x4 = 112 hours).
    Celebrity reality shows are a bit less or a bit more at times (it goes in spurts).

    Scripted fiction shooting ratio can be as low as 20:1 and high as 300:1 (Law and Order: Crime and Punishment was supposedly around 390:1).

    Shooting ratio has increased significantly in all forms of TV and "film" production.


    For DVC Pro HD P2 workflow would be..

    1. Shoot with 4 or more P2 cards. You transfer P2 media throughout the day on to a laptop with a firewire drive (either the DP or assistant or field AP does this).
    2. Ship firewire to post facility for storage transfer and archiving (2 seperate steps).
    3. Media is converted to offline res via NLE software.
    4. logs and screening dubs are made when needed
    5. edit
    6. online

    If you edit in native format (assuming you have the storage for it) it is simpler but you still have the issue of no decks for a simple dub. And how many shows have the budget for 20+ TB of protected storage?

    If you record to tape - you shoot bunch of tapes and ship to facility. Facility batch digitize. There are no extra storage is needed. There is no fear of damage drive or unreadable media, etc. etc. Everything can be recovered.
    Yes it is in real time but have you compared the transcoding process say 1080i DVC Pro HD to 30i 15:1s or DV25? How about the time to make a simple TC burn dub?

    DVC Pro HD, even with the fastest HP or Mac, gives you the fraction of RT compared to offline res. And DVC Pro HD is far less real time than DNxHD - including in a Symhony Nitiris.


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  • Wed, Feb 6 2008 12:57 AM In reply to

    Re: I need AVC-Intra. You will need it too, very soon. Please support.

    Kinda makes the XDCAM disk the sensible way of the future IMO. 45 minutes proxie import 3 minutes.
    Batch import a full res timeline for a 22 minute show less than an hour and a half using 33 disks.
  • Wed, Jan 30 2013 9:29 AM In reply to

    • Daniel
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    Re: I need AVC-Intra. You will need it too, very soon. Please support.

    As a footnote UK channels BBC, ITV & C4 have adopted it as a prefered delivery format.

     

    http://www.digitalproductionpartnership.co.uk/technical-standards/ 

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  • Wed, Jan 30 2013 1:24 PM In reply to

    Re: I need AVC-Intra. You will need it too, very soon. Please support.

    It's a fast changing landscape. HDCAM as 3:1:1 was great compared to SD material but very poor compared to true HD footage.

    DVCPro HD is (was) a great codec for the computer of the day and the subsampled picture looked ok on moderate sized screens.

    But that's all changing.

    The UK broadcasters have agreed to a minimum acquisition datarate of 50Mbps moving to 100Mbps in the future (that future being a year or 2 away, or maybe less)

    So a whole raft of cameras will no longer be suitable for HD broadcast work (they barely were anyway!)

    And of course P2 can produce proxy files which can be AMA kinked and used with ease. So longform can and does work.

    Media management of just about any format is only a mess if you manage it that way.

    Yes we see shooting ratios of 100's to one but that can all be made to work seamlessly if the post house knows their stuff.

    I'll be really glad when HDCAM as a format dies. It's so cruel to nice footage!

    And here in the UK we will see AVC-Intra as the delivery spec for broadcasters. Coupled with the Avid Nitris DX boxes having the ability to have AVC-Intra cards installed and suddenly it's no workload on the CPU at all.

    And far from P2 being a mess Panasonic have managed to handle a format in a really robust way.

    Unlike Sony and their XDCAM and the various derivatives of it. How many media formats do you need!

     BUt we do have AVC-Intra support. You can ingest it. Consolidate it and do SAS exports of it.

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  • Wed, Jan 30 2013 3:35 PM In reply to

    • Daniel
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    Re: I need AVC-Intra. You will need it too, very soon. Please support.

    Thanks for the replies Pat. I'm going to use Adobe Media Encoder until Avid has a solution. 

     

    Cheers,

     

    Daniel

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