Mercer:

Philip Kapadia:

Thank you both. Yes, I know about Job Ter Burg's leaders - I spoke to him privately regarding this. The video engineers I know very well and work with don't agree with his statement on his site:

"Some people mistakenly assume that a 25fps film project (sometimes used in Europe) should have a 25fps leader, but it should not. A film leader is a film leader, 192 frames in length, either counting SMPTE (8 seconds measured at 24fps) or Academy (12 feet of 35mm 4-perf)."

They say that 25fps projects need 25fps leaders. (I got a long and complicated response from them)

I don't think it is particularly helpful to ask questions Phillip and then imply someone like Job, who is well respected here and has offered a very useful resource, is wrong. I'm sure those video engineers weren't wrong but didn't know the reason for that resource

The Academy countdown leader and Bars, Tone clock serve two very different functions in two different areas. The countdown was for film sync (Apart from the lab there was a projector loop seperation between picture and optical sound track that had to be manually set often), focus, frame rack, projection line up, whilst the other is for video technical standards calibration and consistency, i.e Bars @100% (Millivolts), 1KHz tone @ -18db, the clock is a production number and company ident and rarely carries a 1 frame tone sync at minus 3 seconds, now. Pre-screen focus and picture/screen line up is still necessary in digital cinemas, therefore the countdown leader has survived.

Well, the only reason I brought my private conversation with Job Ter Burg up was because Carl mentioned his leaders. I wasn't asking questions about Job's leaders in the first place. I think it's healthy to have discussions like this and debates, we all learn from that.

I think ultimately (I agreed with this in an earlier response on this thread) Job Ter Burg's leaders are as you say for film sync, and I was talking to (likewise high profile people) about TV distribution leaders. I'm sure you can appreciate why I was trying to get to the bottom of this, when two different editors/engineers were telling me two different things.

I now understand that the conversion from 24fps to 25fps on a "film leader" as you say is fine, but isn't accurate on a (Pat called it) headbuild for TV and broadcast. These are things I would have never explored on my own. 

Mercer:

I don't think it is particularly helpful to ask questions Phillip and then imply someone like Job, who is well respected here and has offered a very useful resource, is wrong. I'm sure those video engineers weren't wrong but didn't know the reason for that resource

Hi Mercer,

For context: Philip had already conveyed me the video engineer's reply privately, and in more detail, and that was particularly respectful.

I have amended the text on the webpage where I share my leaders.

J

Philip Kapadia:

the only reason I brought my private conversation with Job Ter Burg up was because Carl mentioned his leaders.

As long as we're all setting the record straight, it was Luca who mentioned Job's leader page. All I did was provide a link.

camoscato:

Philip Kapadia:

the only reason I brought my private conversation with Job Ter Burg up was because Carl mentioned his leaders.

As long as we're all setting the record straight, it was Luca who mentioned Job's leader page. All I did was provide a link.

Oh yes, That's right. Sorry! 

Job ter Burg:

Hi Mercer,

For context: Philip had already conveyed me the video engineer's reply privately, and in more detail, and that was particularly respectful.

I have amended the text on the webpage where I share my leaders.

J

All good Job - I did not mean to seem to have a go at Phillip - I respect his young enquiring mind Thank you for explaining, both. Long may countdown leaders thrive!

any ideas where to find this on a mac?

JoshuaHalifaxNS:

any ideas where to find this on a mac?

Hi, what do You mean by "this", bars and tones?

I've always just created my own project called "Project leader" and then made the bin with bars and tone and anything else you want in a sequence, and then made that bin a "favourites" bin...so it shows up in every other project i work in.

I usually only do 23.976 and 59.94 projects, so i have a favourites bin with each name. (23.98 leader and 59.94 leader)

As for legality...i've had plenty of shows pass external QC houses that used Avid created bars and tone.

I've also had plenty come back with a fail that used Resolves bars.

Glenn Sakatch:

I've also had plenty come back with a fail that used Resolves bars.

No programme should fail because of bars. Any proper vectorscope, outboard preferably, should instantly show if those bars are not legal. Is Resolve's internal vectorscope not accurate? I'll have to check for myself. Care must be taken with Avid too, to import them without colour scaling. Bars and tone are a legacy and formality to head up shows these days and I have only ever had a QC note if the production number is wrong.

Well of You happen to export the file with the wrong settings QC will fail at colour bars. Other than operator error, some file formats are not gamma accurate either. 

Glenn Sakatch:

I've always just created my own project called "Project leader" and then made the bin with bars and tone and anything else you want in a sequence, and then made that bin a "favourites" bin...so it shows up in every other project i work in.

That's also what I did many years ago. And now the "Favourites Bin" makes it very easy to access it in every new project.

Actually if you look at the Resolve bars, you will see an issue.   Not in front of the computer, but I think their I or Q was incorrect.

And believe me, a QC house will fail a show for bars.  I had to redo bars on 10 episodes and reoutput them for an international distributor.

Reasonable...no, but it happened.  I don't think anybody even sets up shows to bars anymore.  Many places don't even ask for them.  They want the show to start with a slate.

Avid comes with SMPTE bars and tone. There's a really helpful blog post here that has the info: https://www.tv-ae.com/post/bars-and-tone-avid

As for academy leader, Avid does not provide it. However, if you're working with a dailies house, they usually have a leader they like. You can reach out and ask.