Latest post Wed, Oct 29 2014 6:48 AM by Mercer. 18 replies.
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  • Wed, Oct 22 2014 8:58 AM

    • Mercer
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    Laptop 10bit playback

    Looking at the certified laptop specs for MC/Symphony for both Mac and PC it specifically says 10bit playback is not supported. Does this mean Mojo DX or software only or all 3rd party I/O hardware too?

    Been looking at BM Ultrastudio and shuttle I/Os though havn´t got my hands on any yet. Does anyone have 10bit playback working with these on laptops? Or does Avid magically recognize QM87/HM87/HM86 MBs and switch 10bit off?

    I know when Avid says not 'supported', they might mean not tested or/and not possible but it is never clear.

    MC with Symphony option, 2022.10, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Oct 22 2014 1:45 PM In reply to

    • aVienna
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    Re: Laptop 10bit playback

    DVI is limited to the RGB color range (0–255). HDMI supports RGB, but also supports YCbCr 4:4:4 and YCbCr 4:2:2. Perhaps that is one of the limits you see. I would wonder why a Thunderbolt adapter like the AJA T-TAP  or UltraStudio should not work with 10bit.

    Windows 10 Pro with latest MC, DNxID [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Oct 22 2014 2:25 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: Laptop 10bit playback

    aVienna:

    DVI is limited to the RGB color range (0–255). HDMI supports RGB, but also supports YCbCr 4:4:4 and YCbCr 4:2:2. Perhaps that is one of the limits you see. I would wonder why a Thunderbolt adapter like the AJA T-TAP  or UltraStudio should not work with 10bit.

    Hi thanks aVienna, but I´m not talking about computer monitors (since as I understand it it virtually all laptop displays are 6bit anyway) and RGB/YCbCR/4:4:4/4:2:2. I´m talking about bit depth to broadcast 10bit monitors over I/O hardware with a laptop specifically. Perhaps my post was confusing when I mentioned software, since I should be aware of that general limitation too.

    Avid states specifically in its certified computer list that all laptops wether they are Mac or PC are not supported for 10bit playback and what I´d like to know is does this just refer to Mojo DX over Express card? Does anybody here have success using BM, Aja or Matrox with Thunderbolt, USB 3.0 or Express card monitoring at 10bit to a broadcast monitor with a laptop using Avid?

    MC with Symphony option, 2022.10, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
  • Wed, Oct 22 2014 7:39 PM In reply to

    Re: Laptop 10bit playback

    While Monitors themselves will often be limited to 8-bit, especially in the case of HDMI monitors, AJA's products for Avid Open I/O including the Io 4K and T-TAP™ do support 10-bit out and for best results you will want to be driving a professional Broadcast monitor with SDI inputs.

    You can read more about the AJA products at:

    KONA: http://www.aja.com/en/family/kona

    IO: http://www.aja.com/en/family/io

    Also a reminder that we released a new Open I/O plug-in this week which added support for KONA 4 at: http://www.aja.com/en/support/avid

     

  • Thu, Oct 23 2014 2:08 AM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: Laptop 10bit playback

    AJA Video Systems:

    While Monitors themselves will often be limited to 8-bit, especially in the case of HDMI monitors, AJA's products for Avid Open I/O including the Io 4K and T-TAP™ do support 10-bit out and for best results you will want to be driving a professional Broadcast monitor with SDI inputs.

    You can read more about the AJA products at:

    KONA: http://www.aja.com/en/family/kona

    IO: http://www.aja.com/en/family/io

    Also a reminder that we released a new Open I/O plug-in this week which added support for KONA 4 at: http://www.aja.com/en/support/avid

     

    Thanks but this still does not answer my question. I did mention broadcast monitors (not computer monitors) and I meant HD-SDI not HDMI though it is my understanding that most of them do support both SDI and HDMI these days and the signals from the right hardware should be the same. At the same time it is also my understanding that Nvidia Quadro drivers do deliver 10bit to computer monitors but Geforce doesn´t?

    Be that as it may my question specifically relates to laptops and the afementioned Avid specs stating 10bit support is not ´supported´.

    Are you at least saying that your products have been tested to deliver 10bit green playback from the Avid timeline on approved laptops?

    I´m beginning to think that either I have to be a guinea pig here or the lack of user feedback confirms Avid literal statement.

    MC with Symphony option, 2022.10, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Oct 23 2014 5:24 PM In reply to

    • aVienna
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    Re: Laptop 10bit playback

    http://www.avid.com/US/products/Media-Composer 

    then Techspecs > Avid-qualified Windows-based computer  or  Avid-qualified Mac-based computer ´

    cannot see where you see  "10bit playback is not supported".

    Windows 10 Pro with latest MC, DNxID [view my complete system specs]
  • Thu, Oct 23 2014 10:23 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: Laptop 10bit playback

    aVienna:

    http://www.avid.com/US/products/Media-Composer 

    then Techspecs > Avid-qualified Windows-based computer  or  Avid-qualified Mac-based computer ´

    cannot see where you see  "10bit playback is not supported".

     

    http://resources.avid.com/SupportFiles/attach/README_Avid_Editor_v8_0.pdf

    Pages 11 and 14

     

    MC with Symphony option, 2022.10, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Oct 24 2014 1:05 PM In reply to

    • aVienna
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    Re: Laptop 10bit playback

    indeed.

    page 11:

    Qualified PC Notebooks for Avid Media Composer
    The following PC Notebooks are qualified with Avid Media Composer. The following applies to the editing system when running on a laptop:
    • DNxHD capture is only supported on Mojo DX on a Quad core system with hyperthreading enabled. Nitris DX is not supported on laptops.
    • Capture of 10 bit video for example, DNxHD 185x, is not supported on Mojo DX.
    Playback in full quality 10 bit mode is not supported


    page 14:

    Qualified Macintosh Notebooks for Media Composer
    The following Macintosh notebooks are qualified with the current editing applications. The following applies to the editing system when running on a laptop.
    • HD Capture on Macintosh notebooks is not supported
    Playback in full quality 10 bit mode is not supported


    We need a moderator to clarify: What means "when running on a laptop"? Perhaps: Playback in full quality 10 bit mode displayed on the internal monitor of the laptop is not supported" ... meaning "does not work" or if it does not work, Avid does not support troubleshooting it.

    I agree it is not clear.

    Windows 10 Pro with latest MC, DNxID [view my complete system specs]
  • Fri, Oct 24 2014 7:31 PM In reply to

    Re: Laptop 10bit playback

    I'll ask, and report back if I get an answer.

    p.s. My guess is "not supported" means, "It may or may not work, but if it doesn't work, don't blame us, and don't call us for support because there's nothing we can do to help you make it work."  Again, that's a guess.  If I get a real answer I'll post here.

    Media Composer 2022.12 w/Symphony/SS/PF options, HP Z-Book G6 17", i7-9850H 2.60GHz, 32gb RAM, NVIDIA Quadro RTX 3000, Blackmagic UltraStudio Mini... [view my complete system specs]

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who only consider the price are this man's lawful prey."  - John Ruskin (1819-1900)

     

    Carl Amoscato | Freelance Film & Video Editor | London, UK

  • Fri, Oct 24 2014 8:28 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: Laptop 10bit playback

    camoscato:

    I'll ask, and report back if I get an answer.

    p.s. My guess is "not supported" means, "It may or may not work, but if it doesn't work, don't blame us, and don't call us for support because there's nothing we can do to help you make it work."  Again, that's a guess.  If I get a real answer I'll post here.

    Thank you aVienna and Camoscato for taking my question seriously, I really do appreciate it!

    Here´s hoping Avid have something to say on the matter.

     

     

     

    MC with Symphony option, 2022.10, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Oct 27 2014 6:13 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: Laptop 10bit playback

    I'm a little surprised there is absolutely no interest in this - only a little though.

    I'm increasingly finding work takes me offsite and onset, and with current and next generation high end 'workstation' laptops closing the gap on desktops they are quite a viable option (at least it's working that way for me), certainly for offline but also at least HD broadcast finishing, with the right I/O hardware, extra screens, docking stations, and an A grade broadcast monitor. I can't imagine I'm the only one vaguely working in this way?

    I can't see the reason why Intel mobile high end chipsets/procs would act any differently to the desktop equivalent variety and can only assume as above that Avid is referring to laptop computer screens and/or Mojo DX (though that baffles me too) and/or, as has been mentioned, 'supported' as in 'not tested'.

    In any case it seems like the technical manual writers not being in tune with engineering perhaps, but I do think someone from Avid should clarify this, or at least be able to, because it seems an explicit limitation as defined by Avid in their ReadMe.

    MC with Symphony option, 2022.10, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Oct 27 2014 6:22 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: Laptop 10bit playback

    Mercer:

    Thank you aVienna and Camoscato for taking my question seriously, I really do appreciate it!

    Here´s hoping Avid have something to say on the matter.

    Mercer....

    Carl sent this to me for a response.....   sorry but I have been a tad behind with email due to several product launches last week.  I should have an answer for you shortly... I didnt know with  100% certainty so I asked the product champ.

    stand by

    Marianna 

    Sr. Director | Customer Experience [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Oct 27 2014 6:31 PM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: Laptop 10bit playback

    Marianna:

    Mercer....

    Carl sent this to me for a response.....   sorry but I have been a tad behind with email due to several product launches last week.  I should have an answer for you shortly... I didnt know with  100% certainty so I asked the product champ.

    stand by

    Marianna 

    Thanks Marianna,

    I don't think you ever need to apologise, seeing how hard you work. Looking forward to hearing an official take on this though.

     

     

    MC with Symphony option, 2022.10, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
  • Mon, Oct 27 2014 11:06 PM In reply to

    • Marianna
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    Re: Laptop 10bit playback

    Mercer....

    Here is what I found out.... from the hardware guys. 

    First, MC software does not show 10bit quality if you do not have hardware connected.  The source record windows do not display video in 10 bit thus no need for 10 bit mode.

     

    Secondly.... Now, on the laptops. The Express PCI connector is only single lane PCIe and does not handle the 10 bit bandwidth required for Mojo DX.  The thunderbolt adapter actually has 4 lane  PCIe and works fine for 10 bit mode.  If you check out the latest qualified CPU list, the note has been removed.  10 bit mode is still available on Mojo DX with the express PCI adapter.

     

    However, it will not capture without error and playback drops frames. 

     

    Finaly.....   Some 3rd party vendors support a compressed 10 bit mode over express PCI.  You would have to check those websites for specific requirements.  These adapters were tested several years ago and they don't remember the specifics.

     

    HTH

    marianna 

    Sr. Director | Customer Experience [view my complete system specs]
  • Tue, Oct 28 2014 9:46 AM In reply to

    • Mercer
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    Re: Laptop 10bit playback

    Marianna:

    Secondly.... Now, on the laptops. The Express PCI connector is only single lane PCIe and does not handle the 10 bit bandwidth required for Mojo DX.  The thunderbolt adapter actually has 4 lane  PCIe and works fine for 10 bit mode.  If you check out the latest qualified CPU list, the note has been removed.  10 bit mode is still available on Mojo DX with the express PCI adapter.

     

    However, it will not capture without error and playback drops frames. 

     

    Finaly.....   Some 3rd party vendors support a compressed 10 bit mode over express PCI.  You would have to check those websites for specific requirements.  These adapters were tested several years ago and they don't remember the specifics.

     

    HTH

    marianna 

    Thanks Marianna for such a quick response, it certainly does help. But just to press you on this, if I may, it is my understanding that current Express Card (2.0) bandwidth is approximately the same as usb 3.0 (625 MB/s), which I would of thought is more than enough for HD 10bit capture, at least? So is this limitation applicable also to USB 3.0 I/O devices such as BM Shuttle and Ultrastudio?

    Capture is not really that important to me as I mainly do file ingest but playback at 10bit is very important on a laptop for grading etc. and I would like to be able to explore the compact and cheaper USB 3.0 devices from BM. And from what you say it certainly seems to confirm the limitation was referring exclusively to tested Mojo DX configs.

    I ask this (about the USB 3.0) because even my old XW8200 with Adrenaline/DNxCel could output 10bit HD (with rendering) over firewire and I would of thought the new quad core i7 laptop I have, over even USB 3.0, woud best that by quite a margin.

    MC with Symphony option, 2022.10, HP ZBook 17 G5, i7-8850H 6 core/64GB ram/512 M2 ssd/Nvidia Quadro P5200/16GB/FHD, HP Thunderbolt Dock G2, BMD Ultrastudio... [view my complete system specs]
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